^^^ Blah blah, aint gerrnna terk err gerns!!!!!

FYI< microstamping is using a stamp on the firing pin to stamp the cartridge when the round is fired. you can still make your own bullets.






Right back to the fear propaganda huh r3d? lol

i like you red, and i respect you, and i respect your ideas, but it never ceases to amaze me how many intelligent adults keep swinging back into the broken record of propaganda and rhetoric and actually believe it to a validation of opinion rather than rely on logic, reason, and facts. its almost like a brainwashing from the extremist sides(both left and right), "chant our rhetoric! dont question its validity! with us, you do NOT need to think for yourself! ignore the men behind the curtain, they are there for your protection!"

Here is a perfectly good test. Back up your statement rationally and intelligently without personal attacks, claims of fear, orr right wing hyperbole. Instead give an objective explanation to substanciate this claim of yours. I dont think you can do it. If you can explain this to me intelligently without fear attacks, i very well may see that you are right and change my mind, i certainly wont change my viewpoint from fear propaganda, only weak minded individuals fall for that bullshit.

This is where the hard left and right crumble under the lack of substance. Because half the crap they spout out is so distorted that instead of giving a rational explanation to thier claims they instead attack you with fear propaganda.

Thats the problem with the hard right, they reject everything outright, If i created a free magical powder that when sprinkled on a gun and made it impossible for the gun to shoot a child, the right wing would still claim it is a violation of the 2nd ammendment.


No offence intended R3D, but i dont think you can back up anything you said in your last post with logic and reason, all you will do is shove more fear propaganda and hyperbole down my throat, because so far when it comes to guns thats about all i have seen.

seriously though, i dont mean to offend.

EDIT: One of these days i really should try practicing the 5th ammendment, unfortunaly i seem pretty lousy at it.

 

God I hope you never go to court on murder charges.. Even if you're innocent you will probably get the guilty verdict

 

do you seriously think it would be limited to a firing pin stamp? There are other components involved in a shooting that are all currently identifiable and well tracked. Wouldn't you possibly consider that the 600million or so guns already under private ownership have no such thing and would thence be either exempted (thus nullifying the law as a safety measure and exposing it as gun-grabber bullshit) or be banned, confiscated and destroyed (thus ensuring adherence to the new law). Do you see the intrinsic flaw in the whole microstamping debate. I don't even have to mention that the mere availability of replacement parts (and files) negates the whole discussion and that currently used methods of forensic identification on spent cartridge casings and projectiles has been in common courtroom use for 20+ years without ever having trampled on a citizens rights.

You still have not debated me... you've only really spent time contradicting me and calling me irrational.

Oh yeah.. and revolvers... hummmmm whatcha gunna do about those. Ban possession of spent brass.

 

you cant take away the cowards rights and fight for yours in the same paragraph lol

 

because untill now all you have ever done is call people afraid and make boasts, this is the FIRST time i have ever seen you post anything about gun control that diddnt come off an NRA bumpersticker.

Yes, the microstamping is limited to a firing pin stamp. That is what it is. There are other technologies that they are trying to use that are absurd like embedding RFID chips and such. THOSE would absolutly drive up the cost of guns and i would oppose those to no end.

Yes, the 600 million guns in existance would be exempt. They are trying to pass a law stating all gun manufacturers would have to go with microstamping pins. There is nothing in the works to take away the 600 million guns without the technology. Over the course of YEARS and YEARS like 20-30 a heavy amount of the firearms in the USA will be stamping thier bullets.

Yes, microstamping is flawed, it can be removed, there are 600 million(no ****?) guns out there that dont stamp thier bullets. But the thing you have to understand is Microstamping is NOT intended to be a fix-all cure-all to control and track guns. it is just a precautionary measure that will aid law enforcement in solving murders. Simply another tool in thier arsenel of methods law enforcement use to solve crimes.

Using this system does NOT stomp on your rights, it doesent stomp on your rights anymore than looking at the rifling of the rounds. it does basically the same thing.I really have NO CLUE where everyone thinks it stomes over americans right, i mean for ***** sake, drive to the ATM and you have been filmed on probably 50 CCTV systems. But i dont hear anyone bitching about that.

And ban posession for spent brass? why the hell would they bother? Right Wing gun enthusiests have blown this entire thing so far out of proportion that it is rediculous. This is not some massive gun control legistlation with the goal of controlling your guns, it is not some sort of left wing conspiracy aimed to take away your guns. It is just an idea to AID law enforcement, i know several people in law enforcement, if something like this would help them track down a killer, then i say we help them out.


IF they manage to get this to work, IF it does not cause reliability issues, IF it does not drive up the cost of a gun more than 10 bucks, IF it does not have any requirements to retro-modify exisiting firearms, then when it comes to the poll i will happily put an X on YES.

The NRA is just bored so they are turning small fry things like Microstamping into some massive monster that does not exist.

Most of the concerns are easily dismissed, the one that i think would suck would be for people liek you who reuse your casings, because i dont know if the stamp would mess with the inregrity of the spent casing, but then again, im sure you will just file the stamp off and live the rest of your life as if it never existed in the first place.

like i said r3d, im not trying to be a jerk or anything, it is just a pet peeve of mine when somone expects me to agree with a political viewpoint that is supported by rhetoric. Thankyou for actually putting a little effort to explain WHY you feel the way you do without the fear attacks.

if you can explain exactly what rights you lose with microstamping i very well may change my mind and be against it.

All these assumptions that they will illegalize spend brass, band pre-microstamped guns, ... they are just paranoid fear-based knee jerk EXTREME conjecture that have nothing to do with the microstamping

 

I must say, that I have enjoyed reading this thread. As you can see, this is an issue that people feel very strongly about one way or the other and I think BOTH sides are guilty of over-exagerations. There is a LOT of hype on this issue and bad information, etc....

So, I like to start with the basics.

The Constitution guarentees our right to bear arms. While it is difficult to know for sure what the Founding Fathers really meant or intended, historians have spent a lot of time reading personal memoirs etc... to get an idea of the authors. I also believe that many of the Founding Fathers believed strongly in personal freedoms even if it meant allowing someone to do something that they would personally not want to do themselves. Our Founding Fathers were trying to create a government at a time when they were fleeing Brittish rule.

It is likely that the Second Ammendment was created for two reasons: 1 - Keep government honest. If your citizens can have weapons it means that you better do a good job or governing or risk a rebelion. This was a big deal back in the 1700's. 2 - The government needed a militia and if everyone has a weapon, then it is a lot easier to raise troops to fight.

It is also likely that the founding fathers had no idea how society would change over the next 200+ years. It is my personal opinion that if they knew someone could carry an AK-47 type weapon, I have my personal doubts that they would have written the Contitution the same way.

This is why it is up to the Supreme Court to interpret our laws to ensure their Constitutionality. Even experts on the Constitution do not agree....most judgements by the SC are not unanimous. The SC's job is to provide balance. You can't make a judgement that protects EVERYONE'S interests in the same way.

We have the right to free speach, but that does not mean we can say whatever we want, when we want to, and how loud we want it to be.

We have the right to privacy....yet the word privacy is not ever mentioned.....not once....in the Constitution, but the SC has interpreted over the years that the INTENT of the Founding Fathers was that we all have a certain right to privacy even if it is not explicit.

We have the right to bear arms...but this does not mean that I can own a cannon or a tank...or whatever crazy weapon that I want.

Our government has the job of providing protections for our people w/o infriging too much on our rights. When your right to bear an arm infringes on my right to not want to bear an arm, or places me in an unsafe position, that we have a problem.

This is why it is soo important to understand perhaps the greatest role of all of a President.....he/she appoints Supreme Court Justices. The Pres is the head of the Executive branch. He does not make laws, he does not interpret laws, he enforces the laws. I think most American have forgotten this.

BTW, I consider myself a Conservative. But I also think that a real Conservative must understand the Constitution rather then just leaping to conclusions. There are many "Conservatives" who don't understand this, just like there are many Liberals who "think" that they are standing up for the little guy, but care more about taking away rights rather then preserving them.

 

lol

j/k
sorry... i couldnt resist.

 

LOL...very funny. I am not Liberal, though.

 

Yah neither am i, but i get accoused of it sometimes. lol

 

Well everyone is left of someone I suppose.

 

Back to politics....

It is funny how society struggles with these issues and often laughs in the face of personal freedoms for the common good when most people agree or see behavior as deviant.

For example....is it constitutional for the police to pose as a 13 year old girl on the internet to catch child molesters. The averager person would probably think this is fine...whatever it takes to catch a creep. There is a guy int he news who got caught in a sting. he has a clean record, but the police also caught him trying to set-up meetings with 3 other girls....but all were actually cops and part of different sting operations. As a father of daughters, I love to see these guys get busted, but I think it is wrong for the police to trap people no matter the intended crime. This is a slippery slope. Should we arrest people becaus ethey have racist thoughts? Or, only if they conduct a racist action..****, this si George Orwell stuff.

Is it constitutional to embed technology in a gun to determine who fired it? Is that constitutional? What about chips in cars that can record your every move and determine if you broke the law?

Technology sure challenges debate. Just because something is right or has a benefit does not mean we should actually do it.

 

That is a very good point.

The benefits must outweight the potential harm. We as citizens need to just do our best to intelligently view the situation with logic and reason and not get caught up in propaganda from either side.

unfortunatly most people are just happy to believe whatever they are told


im for microstamping just because none of the arguments i have heared really seem valid, more of a fear based knee jerk reaction.

If somone could explain exactly why it is such a horrible thing and how it violates peoples rights i could very well change my mind.

When it comes to this kind of thing my pride is not on the line, i choose to be informed and wil listen to any arguement for or against the technology, however I lend far more credit to a coherent intelligently based arguement with reason and facts than having propaganda and fear based attacks rammed down my throat.



EDIT: ive always had an issue with the "To catch a predator" thing. These guys who answered are idiots, then again, some of them may very well be lonly guys who have absolutly no luck with women and are just overcome by the fact a fresh young is wanting to have sex wth them. Yes, its wrong, at the same time they are shown pics of an 18 year old girl. Maybe if they showed pics of a 13 year old not all of them would succumb to the temptation. Procecuting somebody for intent without the act of the crime seems all and well when it is attempting murder or something, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when they go out there and do everything they can to bait and lure men who may just have a moment of weakness... it doesent escuse thier behavior, but .. ****..

 

I think the most valid arguement against micro-stamping is the "slippery slope" fear. A fear...yes...and actually pretty legitamate.

The issue is "what next"?

40,000 people die every year on the nations highways (I think that is correct based on the last time I looked) which is likely A LOT less then those that die from guns. Yet, what if we required that everyone have a chip in their car that regulates the speed, or a camera that records all the actions that take place inside the cabin etc.... I could easily make the argument that actions like this might save 40,000 lives each year, but no one would want it.

What about a pill that prevents a teenager from having any sexual desires (a book was written about this by Kierkegaard if I am not mistaken)...imagine how much better society might be...an easy arugument to make.

Remember, Hitler made the trains run on time....

 

I think a valid defence is.....hey, I would not have comitted this act had I not been approached by this cop posing as etc...

BUT, take this argument to a different level. What if I jumped in your car and drove off in it w/o your permission...stole it. Police catch me and I say "hey, he left it running with the key in it.....I would never had taken it otherwise....not my fault."

 

@ Jack the ripper:

the reason i believe it will make prices go sky high is the simple fact that they will exploit every reason they can to make money out of the populace for any reason. i have NO faith whatsoever in manufacturers in putting a fair price on stuff. i expect everyone to overprice the **** out of sheer greed. there are exceptions, but when it comes to national manufacturers of stuff, like GE, Remington, Texaco, 76 Gasoline, and other huge companies like that, i fully expect them to overcharge with the "MSRP" stuff. i just believe that the human race as a whole are greedy bastards. that's my view.


but hey, if microstamping is not gonna raise the price on the guns or ammo, and provide another tool for the police to catch criminals, all the power to them. i just don't want my .30-06 ammo being 50 bucks for a 20 round box of 165 grain soft-tips...


EDIT: one REALLY good example was fuel prices. they were rising to 4.65 a GALLON out of SPECULATION. that prime example was in California straight off of a highway.

 

Gun and ammo manufacturers can't charge whatever they want....people will only pay what they can. Just like you, they will want to the technology to be affordable, otherwise, they will loose sales. They want to stay in business, just like you want to buy their products.

A more sound argument would be how the technology impacts demand as a whole. Will this make more or less people desire a gun? If fewer people buy guns and ammo over time because they don't want the technology, then competition will be lower and prices will increase. Or, if the technology drives a new consumer base....say, more wealthy people start desiring guns, then you will be competing with them and their willingness to pay more. Harley Davidson is a good example. The prices for their bikes elevated (as did their quality) when working professionals startng buying them...they have more money and demand better quality then the old-school buyer.

Compared to oil prices, there is is no "speculation" market for ammo. For speculation to exist you would need an exchange or commodity market for the ammo. Had oil increased last summer because of some new, government mandatted green technology, your anology would be correct. But oil has inelastic demand for the most part which means the consumer will need to buy it for the most part regardless of price, this allows prices to elevate because there is no corresponding decrease in demand. Oil went from $50 to $150 overnight, yet global demand was off by only 4%.

 

actually when demand goes down price goes down
econ 101

i do get your point about the competition
but its not all that much competition in that market anyhow

gun use is DEFINITELY NOT going down
its only going up

btw im in ga and they are really relax on guns so i guess my comment of it going up could be wrong since i only no about this part of d world

 

Ammo prices have tripled in the past year and guns are up 15-30% because Obama got elected. Do you think a new regulation will have any less impact?

One day the Feds said, "Hey we can't outlaw this thing but we're going to require you to buy a $15K non-refundable tax stamp to have one of said things. Oh yeah, and even if you qualify under the regulations and fill out the proper forms and have the 15,000 bones, we'll still be able to withhold the stamp for any/no reason at our sole discretion, we'll also keep the 15,000 smackeroos and you have no avenue to an appeal on the matter." And then people who wanted to obey the law stood in line to pay the tax. When the first days business was done they'd collected several hundred names of applicants and their applications and tax fees but not issued a single stamp.

It was called The National Firearms Act of 1934. At the time (and currently, at least until somebody notices) the tax was 200 dollars (5 months salary in 1934). It was enacted not during the roaring 20's, there were no tommy gun battles in the streets. Just ordinary old fashioned depression era street brawls and the occasional pistol fight or stabbing. What was it that the NFA was established to accomplish, distracting the populace from the actual problem of the economy sucking ***** harder than ever by showing them how they were being "protected" by their trusty government.

Not much has changed except that now it's nationalized health care that's distracting everyone from the modern-day great depression (more people are out of work now than in 1933) and people have forgotten that #2 is the only credible protector of #1.

 

not so much. That's theory. Practice includes CEO's refusing to allow their quarterly revenues to drop below the revenues for this quarter last year and will JACK prices up in the short term to cover the gap so their stock price doesn't take a hit. Saves actually solving the problem till next quarter and as long as your stock price is good that's all that matters anymore.

Gasoline demand went down like a rock in a pond last summer as pump prices hit 5 bucks a gallon and prices continued their stay at ungodly high levels until demand picked up again mid-late fall, then we saw a deep cut of 50-60% in the price at the pump (this is the benefit of economy of scale at work as refineries came back on-line to support the demand), that was followed demand staying flat with the economy and slow steady price increases back up to 80% of last summer's price. You can see right there that prices were manipulated to extract the most possible cash from the available supply and demand. Don't pretend that S&D actually has much to do with anything in the current market. People are sheep and behave as such.

 

if he wanted attention he would have shot obama

 

 

I'd imagine some of the reasoning behind the scenes for things like microstamping is that the anti-gun lobby wants guns and ammo to be more expensive so that fewer people buy them in the first place.

One of my favorite quotes is "Those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither" Essentially, if you are willing to give up your ability to speak out or defend yourself just to get some handout or because of some laws "for the good of the masses" then you are just setting yourself up to be ruled by a tyrannical government.

Look at every dictator or oppressive government in history and you will see that the first steps they took before putting their foot to the populations throats was to get rid of private ownership of guns.

Firearms are our last resort and last line of defense over a government that is willing to tromp all over our rights and it is a freedom loving person's duty to rise up against any such government. That right there is in the declaration of independence. Government should be afraid of the people, and not the other way around.

 

I agree but this thread died 2 months ago

 

yah man, this topic has been beaten to death around here.

all i can say is dont listen to lobbiests they are all hardcore one side of the other and have a hard time seperating hyperbole and paranoia from reality

ask your own questions, find your own answers and if something smells like bullshit it probably is.

dont be a brainwashed idiot like 80% of the population.