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  #1  
Old 08-18-2009, 10:20 AM
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Default Guns and politics

Man carrying assault weapon attends Obama protest


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090817/...rotesters_guns

I say good for him

and good job AZ for not being a *****

Last edited by Lazerred6; 08-18-2009 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 08-18-2009, 02:47 PM
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I have such a huge issue with this, and it's because I don't understand it. In Cali that is not legal and you do not see people carrying guns around. I personally don't see the need to have an AR 15 on your shoulder at a health care rally. I know it's legal to have that kind of weapon in AZ, but to me that guy was doing it for attention and no other reason.

I guess my biggest issue is that if I had my family at that rally I would have got them the F out of there because I don't know what that guy with the AR 15 is going to do. I think most people who do carry guns probably wouldn't show up to an event like that with an assault rifle on their shoulder because it would possibly warrant unwanted attention.

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Old 08-18-2009, 02:59 PM
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I think that if he wanted attention he would have given his name

I could do the same thing in michigan (with a hand gun) if I wanted to but I would probably be questioned by the cops. I think where it is legal more people should carry guns.

As it is actions like this scare people when I don't think they should. The lawful open carrying of guns should be much more common place. Seeing someone with a gun shouldn't make you scared it should make you feel safe.
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Lazerred6 View Post
I

As it is actions like this scare people when I don't think they should. The lawful open carrying of guns should be much more common place. Seeing someone with a gun shouldn't make you scared it should make you feel safe.
Generally I would agree with you, but there are too many nut jobs out there.
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:10 PM
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I am all for the right to carry but I have to agree some of these guys are doing it just for the attention. I have to wonder if this is somewhat related to the fact that we now have a black president. I find i hard to believe that weapons have never been brought to speeches in open carry states before.
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:21 PM
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Obama has supported banning guns not many presidents have been as pro gun control as he is
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by whitestang04 View Post
I have to agree some of these guys are doing it just for the attention.
They were at a protest I think attention for their view was the point
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:42 PM
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223 FTW!
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:48 PM
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223 FTW!
well obviously but what is your stance on the discussion
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:17 PM
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They were at a protest I think attention for their view was the point
Touche
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:21 PM
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In truth the protesting was more news worthy than the guns they had or that's the way it should have been

But

protesters observed abiding the law and utilizing their constitutional rights

doesn't make headlines
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:34 PM
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I would really like to know what some of our law enforcement officers feel about the idea of open carry as it varies greatly by state
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jjtgiants View Post
Generally I would agree with you, but there are too many nut jobs out there.
The politest place on earth is a gun show. Ever wonder why? If he's there armed then thugs will choose another place. If everyone that can be armed is, then suddenly everyone starts saying please and thank you and excuse me.

In my mind that's reason enough for our laws to be changed. I would like to see California establish CCW reciprocity with other states (at least our neighbors) and to mandate that any person who completes the required training and has nothing in their criminal or mental health history barring them from such to be issued a CCW permit. I have one in 30 states but I can't have one in my home state? What the hell is up with that.

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Originally Posted by Lazerred6 View Post
Obama has supported banning guns not many presidents have been as pro gun control as he is
Not a single one. Obama has stated outright on at least 2 occasions that he's for banning of private ownership of all multi-shot, semi-auto, and hand guns.

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Originally Posted by Lazerred6 View Post
In truth the protesting was more news worthy than the guns they had or that's the way it should have been

But

protesters observed abiding the law and utilizing their constitutional rights

doesn't make headlines
BINGO
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:23 PM
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Good for the guy. As for those who may be worried, did anyone start anything with that guy around? In my local paper, there are editorials everyday about how NJ would be more dangerous if the feds forced NJ to honor other states conceal-and-carry laws. However, the one point it seams the pro-control crowd never understands is that any action to curb gun sales is not going to keep the guns away from criminals. Has any of our laws stopped drug dealers? The War on Drugs should be the example on how gun control is a waste of time since laws don't stop criminals, as that's the nature of criminals. Also, do some of the laws even make sense? A hand-gun generally is much harder to purchase than a shot-gun or rifle. But in the end, criminals still use hand guns since they bypass our laws and purchase the guns illegally anyway. How often do licensed gun salesmen get prosecuted for selling to criminals? It happens but it is a one in hundreds of cases kind of deal. There is a reason why in countries that mandate its citizens to own a gun that crime is much lower.

There is a reason why the right to bear arms was number 2 for our founding fathers, and that's a check on federal power directly by the people.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazerred6 View Post
well obviously but what is your stance on the discussion
oddly enough on the topic of guns im sort of right wing and left wing.

left wing,
I believe in safety measures, tracking methods such as microstamping, i dont believe convicted felons should be allowed to own a gun, i believe in background checks, and i dont see any reason for people to own explosives such as gernades, landmines, bazooka's etc, or high end military weapons such as anti-aircraft weapons.

right wing.
I believe i should be able to legally buy, own, and carry automatic assault rifles, 50 cal sniper rifle, or the biggest ******* handgun ever made.

the right to bear arms is an insurance policy for the people in case the government stops representing the people. The right to bear arms was NOT intended to allow hunters to hunt. It was for the people to protect themselves against the government. Limiting the ownership of firearms to hunting rifles in my view is blatantly against the 2nd ammendment.

As for the people with the firearms in the protest, well, they are there trying to get a message across and they wont make any headlines and get any attention if they are just chanting right wing rhetoric. Having the weapons clearly made an impression on the media and got thier message across beautifully.

What i am the MOST amazed about, is that nobody got arrested.. Especially with the president so close by, remember the guy with the ak-47 that shot at the white house a few years back? SS are not too keen on anything more powerful than a spitwad when it comes to the safety of the president.

They broke no laws, and were not arrested. With the whole handing over our rights to homeland secuity im am just dumbfounded that this went over as well as it did.

It is a clear victory for the 2nd ammendment, it is a clear victory for freedom of speech and assembly, and it is also in my view speaks volumes of the current administration when it comes to thier respect for the freedom of speech and assembly, as well as the 2nd ammendment even if they disagree with it.


im not worried about obama and the 2nd ammedment. he will have an easier time turning chickens into basketballs than outlawing handguns, that is an uphill battle with no end, and even if he did manage to get close somebody will eventually point out to him that when the time comes to collect the newly outlawed firearms that the collectors will have a relativly short lifespan when the gun owners decide to let them collect thier bullets first... he will probably change his mind on the whole thing, leave something in progress when he leaves office, and hope the next guy will be crazy enough to try to finish it.
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:21 PM
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you cant compare obama stance on this to the past
terrorists wasnt AS big of a deal as it is NOW
and if u give guns on any basis you MUST give it to ALL who meet d criteria
and this is america
they are not going to say if you are from the midwest u can have a gun

also people get mad about little things
if we have everyone running around w guns on their hips the murder rate would sky rocket

cali is already highly populated and a high crime area so thats why they keeping guns away bc they cant patrol it

hope i didnt ramble too much
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 10507158 View Post
you cant compare obama stance on this to the past
terrorists wasnt AS big of a deal as it is NOW
and if u give guns on any basis you MUST give it to ALL who meet d criteria
and this is america
they are not going to say if you are from the midwest u can have a gun

also people get mad about little things
if we have everyone running around w guns on their hips the murder rate would sky rocket

cali is already highly populated and a high crime area so thats why they keeping guns away bc they cant patrol it

hope i didnt ramble too much
It has been proven that areas allowing open or concealed carry have reduced crime rates, even more so with violent crimes. The criminals already have their guns and have less to worry about in areas that do not allow law abiding citizens to carry a firearm.
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10507158 View Post
you cant compare obama stance on this to the past
terrorists wasnt AS big of a deal as it is NOW
and if u give guns on any basis you MUST give it to ALL who meet d criteria
and this is america
they are not going to say if you are from the midwest u can have a gun

also people get mad about little things
if we have everyone running around w guns on their hips the murder rate would sky rocket

cali is already highly populated and a high crime area so thats why they keeping guns away bc they cant patrol it

hope i didnt ramble too much
you sir are uneducated, and ignorant of all the facts.


simple fact is, if i get aimed at with a handgun by a thug, and i pull out my huge Enfield .30-06 rifle to his face, he will back down.

microstamping is completely unfeasable, and a stupid idea. will make bullets and weapons SKYROCKET in price, because of the technology required for that stupid idea.
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Old 08-19-2009, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Leonide View Post
microstamping is completely unfeasable, and a stupid idea. will make bullets and weapons SKYROCKET in price, because of the technology required for that stupid idea.
Right on. Plus, again, criminals will find a way around this since again, they don't follow the law. For example, criminals still get their hands on AKs despite them being illegal. Microstamping is thus a useless deterrent. Not to say I'm against any kind of control since you need to keep legal weapons away from those who use them irresponsibly. That's why background checks, permit applications, and to an extent, wait periods are as far as any government should go. Anything more than that is not only overkill but makes life a PITA for lawful citizens. Plus, there should not be any ban on any kind of weapons because again, this doesn't stop criminals from purchasing them thanks to the black market. If I wanted to own a Browning BAR or .50 Machine Gun, I should be allowed to (imagine how safe 7-11s would be w/ a BAR under the counter). If someone fails the background check, they would not get their hands on it. If they were a 1st time criminal, they would realize that their information is on file so hiding is that much harder. If gun control works, than every building needs this sign to ensure safety:
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Old 08-19-2009, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackThe Ripper View Post
oddly enough on the topic of guns im sort of right wing and left wing.

left wing,
I believe in safety measures, tracking methods such as microstamping, i dont believe convicted felons should be allowed to own a gun, i believe in background checks, and i dont see any reason for people to own explosives such as gernades, landmines, bazooka's etc, or high end military weapons such as anti-aircraft weapons.

right wing.
I believe i should be able to legally buy, own, and carry automatic assault rifles, 50 cal sniper rifle, or the biggest ******* handgun ever made.

the right to bear arms is an insurance policy for the people in case the government stops representing the people. The right to bear arms was NOT intended to allow hunters to hunt. It was for the people to protect themselves against the government. Limiting the ownership of firearms to hunting rifles in my view is blatantly against the 2nd ammendment.

As for the people with the firearms in the protest, well, they are there trying to get a message across and they wont make any headlines and get any attention if they are just chanting right wing rhetoric. Having the weapons clearly made an impression on the media and got thier message across beautifully.

What i am the MOST amazed about, is that nobody got arrested.. Especially with the president so close by, remember the guy with the ak-47 that shot at the white house a few years back? SS are not too keen on anything more powerful than a spitwad when it comes to the safety of the president.

They broke no laws, and were not arrested. With the whole handing over our rights to homeland secuity im am just dumbfounded that this went over as well as it did.

It is a clear victory for the 2nd ammendment, it is a clear victory for freedom of speech and assembly, and it is also in my view speaks volumes of the current administration when it comes to thier respect for the freedom of speech and assembly, as well as the 2nd ammendment even if they disagree with it.


im not worried about obama and the 2nd ammedment. he will have an easier time turning chickens into basketballs than outlawing handguns, that is an uphill battle with no end, and even if he did manage to get close somebody will eventually point out to him that when the time comes to collect the newly outlawed firearms that the collectors will have a relativly short lifespan when the gun owners decide to let them collect thier bullets first... he will probably change his mind on the whole thing, leave something in progress when he leaves office, and hope the next guy will be crazy enough to try to finish it.
Well said.

BTW 1050blahblah... you did ramble, you accept that Obama is a gun-grabber, you excuse his long-held beliefs because of current events, and you state as fact that concealed carry = increasing murder rate (in the face of 38 states proving the contrary). You're foolin' yourself bud. Open eyes, take fingers out of ears, think rationally, decide if you can logically hold all those beliefs or if your political ideology needs changing. FWIW, terrorism being present on our shores is not reason for guns to be harder to access, it's reason for them to be easier to access. You have no idea how many crimes are not committed among an armed populace.

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  #21  
Old 08-19-2009, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Leonide View Post

microstamping is completely unfeasable, and a stupid idea. will make bullets and weapons SKYROCKET in price, because of the technology required for that stupid idea.
The price skyrocketing is the exact point of the microstamping idea. Obama knows damn well he can't get support from the Republican's or half the Democratic party to ban guns so the next logical thing to do is price people out of the market.

I like guns, but it's just extremely weird and concerning to me that people can just walk around with an AR 15 on their shoulder. I know it's not illegal in AZ, but I personally would not want to be anywhere near someone that was walking around in public with a weapon like that. If we were out on the range, in the woods that's cool with me, but not at the mall, restraunt or a freaking health care rally.

Couldn't people go home and grab their guns if there was a need to rise up against the government? ha ha
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:23 AM
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Laws regulate that you can not bring a gun into a mall, bar, hospital, church, restraunt, ect. without the expressed concent of the owner in some cases

you can however walk around on the street with one

I might try it in grand rapids with a friend recording since it can no longer be considered disturbing the peace in a heavely populated area or brandishing like it could be before. I might get shot though..... I am sure I will get stopped and questioned
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Leonide View Post
microstamping is completely unfeasable, and a stupid idea. will make bullets and weapons SKYROCKET in price, because of the technology required for that stupid idea.
i have already been over this with R3d in the past.

it is not unfeasable, it is perfectly feasable, it needs some work to perfect it, but there is no reason this technology wont work. it is still in the early stages and would be another tool in the asrenal for law enforcement to track down murderers. Yes they can be filed down, yes guns can be stolen, nobody claims it is perfect but it is cheap and could still be a great aid. if somebody steels a gun and goes out and kills somebody and they decide to run rather than spend 10 minutes fumbling in the dark looking for the shell, that is another lead for the police to go on, even if the gun was stolen it can help them narrow down the thief/murderer.

2, if you actually believe it will skyrocket the price of guns please do some research beyond the NRA website, with mass prodcution implementation it is expected to drive up the cost of the firearm 7-8 dollars per unit. It is a stamp on the firing hammer. It is not exactly rocket science. NRA claims it will "make the price of guns skyrocket" as a fear tactic to get the masses to sway in thier direction at the voting polls. Google around and find the independant testing of microstamp technology. it is still a ways off.

look beyone the NRA for information, most of the crap they spew is the end of the world propaganda, while there is usually a degree of truth behind what they say, it is usually grossly exxagerated.

if you avoid the lefties and the righties and look right down the middle and use your head to siphon through what is bullshit and what is not, then you are ahead of the game and beyond the hyperbole of the extremists.




like i said, i feel if i want to buy an AK-47 and carry it with me i should have the right to do so.

at the same time, safety measures are there for a reason. Nobody is gonna give a **** about yout microstamped shells if the intruder on your living room floor who was riddled with bullets after he broke into your house and threatened you.

if it comes to the point for the people to revolt against the gov, microstamped shells wont make a bit of difference to the fed being shot.

i dont understand why everone blows microstamping out to be such a horrible thing. when they finally perfect it the added cost to a gun will be a few dollars,. and will likely never have any bearing on you, but it very well may help put some murderers behind bars.
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jjtgiants View Post
The price skyrocketing is the exact point of the microstamping idea. Obama knows damn well he can't get support from the Republican's or half the Democratic party to ban guns so the next logical thing to do is price people out of the market.


show me a single reliable independant study that shows microstamping will skryrocket the price?

check through this stuff.
http://microstamp.blogspot.com/2008/...sentative.html

here is the problems they see so far...
http://www.dateline.ucdavis.edu/dl_d...lasso?id=10343

wiki has some interesting facts both sides... i dont have time to look around cause i gotta get wworking, but if you dig around most independant science journals and such have expected the price to be under 10 bucks per firearm for the specialized pin.... i really have NO CLUE where they are claiming it will drive up the cost, they retool the pins, yes they are all individual, but so are keys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_microstamping
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Old 08-19-2009, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonide View Post
you sir are uneducated, and ignorant of all the facts.


simple fact is, if i get aimed at with a handgun by a thug, and i pull out my huge Enfield .30-06 rifle to his face, he will back down.

microstamping is completely unfeasable, and a stupid idea. will make bullets and weapons SKYROCKET in price, because of the technology required for that stupid idea.
that was rude of u
u really just hit one of my pet peaves
i am VERY so educated and have u ever thought that im more educated than u
these are not bad ideas
just unrealistic
im going to leave it at that bc there is no win here on either side
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 10507158 View Post
that was rude of u
u really just hit one of my pet peaves
i am VERY so educated and have u ever thought that im more educated than u
these are not bad ideas
just unrealistic
im going to leave it at that bc there is no win here on either side

lol... sigged.
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackThe Ripper View Post
look beyone the NRA for information, most of the crap they spew is the end of the world propaganda, while there is usually a degree of truth behind what they say, it is usually grossly exxagerated.

if you avoid the lefties and the righties and look right down the middle and use your head to siphon through what is bullshit and what is not, then you are ahead of the game and beyond the hyperbole of the extremists..
Jack we share very similar views on gun ownership and gun control. The statement about the NRA is true, while they offer some good information much of it is exaggerated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackThe Ripper View Post
it is not unfeasable, it is perfectly feasable, it needs some work to perfect it, but there is no reason this technology wont work. it is still in the early stages and would be another tool in the asrenal for law enforcement to track down murderers. Yes they can be filed down, yes guns can be stolen, nobody claims it is perfect but it is cheap and could still be a great aid. if somebody steels a gun and goes out and kills somebody and they decide to run rather than spend 10 minutes fumbling in the dark looking for the shell, that is another lead for the police to go on, even if the gun was stolen it can help them narrow down the thief/murderer.

2, if you actually believe it will skyrocket the price of guns please do some research beyond the NRA website, with mass prodcution implementation it is expected to drive up the cost of the firearm 7-8 dollars per unit. It is a stamp on the firing hammer. It is not exactly rocket science. NRA claims it will "make the price of guns skyrocket" as a fear tactic to get the masses to sway in thier direction at the voting polls. Google around and find the independant testing of microstamp technology. it is still a ways off.

i dont understand why everone blows microstamping out to be such a horrible thing. when they finally perfect it the added cost to a gun will be a few dollars,. and will likely never have any bearing on you, but it very well may help put some murderers behind bars.
I won't make any claims to being up to date on the information or technology involved with microstamping. As I understand it the firing pin will leave a "fingerprint" on the spent casing after it has been fired. One thing that would concern me is what if a criminal takes an honest citizens spent casing and leaves it at a crime scene. I know when I go to a range at any given time there is a trash can at least half full of brass.
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by whitestang04 View Post
Jack we share very similar views on gun ownership and gun control. The statement about the NRA is true, while they offer some good information much of it is exaggerated.


I won't make any claims to being up to date on the information or technology involved with microstamping. As I understand it the firing pin will leave a "fingerprint" on the spent casing after it has been fired. One thing that would concern me is what if a criminal takes an honest citizens spent casing and leaves it at a crime scene. I know when I go to a range at any given time there is a trash can at least half full of brass.
I would assume the rifling on the round would prove that it did not belong to the shell.

but that is a legitimate concern that would need to be addressed.

like i said, im all for microstamping as long as
A) The cost of the firearm does not raise more then 3-10%
B) It in no way hampers the reliability fo the firearm
C) They make sure they spend time running the various scenarios like you listed and make sure they can see past them.
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by JackThe Ripper View Post
I would assume the rifling on the round would prove that it did not belong to the shell.

but that is a legitimate concern that would need to be addressed.

like i said, im all for microstamping as long as
A) The cost of the firearm does not raise more then 3-10%
B) It in no way hampers the reliability fo the firearm
C) They make sure they spend time running the various scenarios like you listed and make sure they can see past them.
Good point I forgot about the rifling.

I think two of the big issues will be:
A) You won't be able to retroact for older weapons which would somewhat defeat the purpose.
B)It seems like it would be easy to remove the markings from the pin and they will wear off on their own anyway.

I am not necessarily aginst it but I agree there are a lot of details to be worked out.
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Old 08-20-2009, 07:41 AM
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Microstamping doesn't and can't work!

I make my own bullets quite often, all without a microstamp. I also like to shoot frangible ammo... you know the bullets that disintegrate on contact leaving nothing but #9 shot and little itsy bitsy bits of jacket material. Can't get a stamp off those. What about stamping the base of the bullet... can't do that on most FMJ ammo and you couldn't even begin to track the movement of ammunition, to do so is unconstitutional (it encumbers the right to bear arms). I never leave the factory firing pin in place, rarely do I leave the factory barrel in place and I routinely touch up the machining on the breech face/bolt head. I also police my brass.

Microstamping is foot-in-the-door **** from scared pussies trying to feel better about being pussies. They know it'll never work so they're trying to make it law which makes guns de-facto illegal because of edge cases. Get your mitts off my bill of rights. Don't be a liar and pretend it's for safety. If you wanted safety you'd see it in massive numbers of armed citizens surrounded by very polite people and governed by those that fear the wrath of the folks they govern.

Cowards want and deserve no rights.
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