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  #1  
Old 04-24-2009, 10:59 AM
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Default Torture?

1. How do you guys feel about all this talk of the U.S. torturing detainees?

2. Do you support the U.S. torturing detainees? If so will you be outraged if another country tortures a U.S. citizen or military person?

3. Should people within the previous administration be held accountable for torturing since it's against international law?

I know those are loaded questions, but let's give it a shot. I have mixed thoughts on all three of the questions so I'll hold off.
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  #2  
Old 04-24-2009, 12:03 PM
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1. About time they start doing it!
2. Yes, i do support it. They've done that too so why can't we?
3. It's actually against the Geneva Convention
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  #3  
Old 04-24-2009, 01:56 PM
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Torture often gets false confessions, the detainees will often start saying whatever the interrogators want to hear just to get them to stop.

All it results in is a bunch of information that may or may not be true.

Personally i think there are better ways
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Old 04-24-2009, 02:15 PM
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1) I don't see a problem with what the Bush Administration did with this subject.

2) Waterboarding does not bother me all. U.S. prisoners of war have been brutally tortured and murdered in Iraq and Vietnam.

3) Obama is ruining our national security already, awesome.

Most of this forum is Republican, not all, but take a look at this discussion between Sean Hannity and Dick Morris...

VIDEO

Here is part of the discussion which I found interesting.

MORRIS: What he likes about this country is they elected him. That's about it. But you know, in this whole torture discussion, nobody is talking about what these examinations gave us. There was a plot to destroy the Brooklyn Bridge and we learned about it because the wiretaps with no warrants picked up that mention.

And Kelly, the police commissioner, flooded the bridge with cops and found out where you would have to stand to go about knocking down the bridge and that it was feasible. Then Khalid — Sheikh Khalid Mohammed, under his 118th waterboarding or something, told us the name of the guy that was going to knock down the bridge.

They raided his apartment in Brooklyn and found the diagram.

HANNITY: Yes.

MORRIS: ... that correctly told him how they go about doing it.

HANNITY: And Dick, they also discovered a terror cell that was here in America as a result of the enhanced techniques. They also discovered a plot for Los Angeles.


BUSH'S METHOD SAVED U.S. LIVES. PERIOD.

Last edited by PistonsFan102; 04-24-2009 at 02:20 PM.
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  #5  
Old 04-24-2009, 02:16 PM
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torture? nah...just kill 'em all. that will solve the terrorist problem 100%.
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  #6  
Old 04-24-2009, 02:27 PM
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I personally don't agree with it... They shouldn't have preached not torturing people if there were doing it. Set the example...
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Old 04-24-2009, 03:23 PM
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Pretty simple concept

The Bush administration swore up and down lied to American people ect about torturing detainees. They locked up US Military Personal for torturing prisoners, the indviduals in photographs ect were either demoted, or had chargers brought upon them.

Torture isn't right, but neither is terrorism. So have the **** at it and let some ********* know that this ****, isn't going to fly. Personally, I'd kill anything that moves, I don't give a **** about women and children over there, not while their dads or husbands are trying to kill my family, or any other american. I'd do alot worse to alot more people.

I believe in war, especially against these people, International Law is thrown out the window and actually used AGAINST US when we capture some of theirs. But when our pilot, or sniper is caught, these scumbags forget what international law is.

They behead journalists, make videos of these poor people crying for their families ect. What the **** did the journalist do to you?

I have a issue with the Bush administration, or any other administration being crooked enough to go **** some of our soldiers lives up because they were following DIRECT ORDERS.

Personally, I'd start by taking a set of pliers and pulling finger and toe nails out, one by one. Take a small propane torch and begin burning the bottoms of their feet, shave their heads, burn the towels on their heads, and continue the process until something was given to me.

False claims? If they are wrong, worse happens.
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  #8  
Old 04-24-2009, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnTBakosFinest View Post
Pretty simple concept

The Bush administration swore up and down lied to American people ect about torturing detainees. They locked up US Military Personal for torturing prisoners, the indviduals in photographs ect were either demoted, or had chargers brought upon them.

Torture isn't right, but neither is terrorism. So have the **** at it and let some ********* know that this ****, isn't going to fly. Personally, I'd kill anything that moves, I don't give a **** about women and children over there, not while their dads or husbands are trying to kill my family, or any other american. I'd do alot worse to alot more people.

I believe in war, especially against these people, International Law is thrown out the window and actually used AGAINST US when we capture some of theirs. But when our pilot, or sniper is caught, these scumbags forget what international law is.

They behead journalists, make videos of these poor people crying for their families ect. What the **** did the journalist do to you?

I have a issue with the Bush administration, or any other administration being crooked enough to go **** some of our soldiers lives up because they were following DIRECT ORDERS.

Personally, I'd start by taking a set of pliers and pulling finger and toe nails out, one by one. Take a small propane torch and begin burning the bottoms of their feet, shave their heads, burn the towels on their heads, and continue the process until something was given to me.

False claims? If they are wrong, worse happens.
werd
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  #9  
Old 04-24-2009, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnTBakosFinest View Post
Pretty simple concept

The Bush administration swore up and down lied to American people ect about torturing detainees. They locked up US Military Personal for torturing prisoners, the indviduals in photographs ect were either demoted, or had chargers brought upon them.

Torture isn't right, but neither is terrorism. So have the **** at it and let some ********* know that this ****, isn't going to fly. Personally, I'd kill anything that moves, I don't give a **** about women and children over there, not while their dads or husbands are trying to kill my family, or any other american. I'd do alot worse to alot more people.

I believe in war, especially against these people, International Law is thrown out the window and actually used AGAINST US when we capture some of theirs. But when our pilot, or sniper is caught, these scumbags forget what international law is.

They behead journalists, make videos of these poor people crying for their families ect. What the **** did the journalist do to you?

I have a issue with the Bush administration, or any other administration being crooked enough to go **** some of our soldiers lives up because they were following DIRECT ORDERS.

Personally, I'd start by taking a set of pliers and pulling finger and toe nails out, one by one. Take a small propane torch and begin burning the bottoms of their feet, shave their heads, burn the towels on their heads, and continue the process until something was given to me.

False claims? If they are wrong, worse happens.
We certainly agree here.
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  #10  
Old 04-24-2009, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnTBakosFinest View Post
Pretty simple concept

The Bush administration swore up and down lied to American people ect about torturing detainees. They locked up US Military Personal for torturing prisoners, the indviduals in photographs ect were either demoted, or had chargers brought upon them.

Torture isn't right, but neither is terrorism. So have the **** at it and let some ********* know that this ****, isn't going to fly. Personally, I'd kill anything that moves, I don't give a **** about women and children over there, not while their dads or husbands are trying to kill my family, or any other american. I'd do alot worse to alot more people.

I believe in war, especially against these people, International Law is thrown out the window and actually used AGAINST US when we capture some of theirs. But when our pilot, or sniper is caught, these scumbags forget what international law is.

They behead journalists, make videos of these poor people crying for their families ect. What the **** did the journalist do to you?

I have a issue with the Bush administration, or any other administration being crooked enough to go **** some of our soldiers lives up because they were following DIRECT ORDERS.

Personally, I'd start by taking a set of pliers and pulling finger and toe nails out, one by one. Take a small propane torch and begin burning the bottoms of their feet, shave their heads, burn the towels on their heads, and continue the process until something was given to me.

False claims? If they are wrong, worse happens.
**** it, im sold!
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  #11  
Old 04-27-2009, 07:40 AM
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This is the way I see it:
Who the **** started this debate on torture in the first place? Torture has been used for years, and the nations that bitch about it commit it at times of war or to their own people (my old HS teacher came close when he went to Israel, despite being Jewish). This is one of those things that need to be silent, since no one wants to hear that we do it though it is a necessity in war. However, you have got to love that the politicians that were the most pissed off by it also approved it after being briefed by the CIA of it (such dummies like Pelosi). And yet, they deny this fact. Even better is the great names, like "enhanced interrogation techniques" that they have come up for it. Bottom line is, let our front-line people, like the Military and CIA do their job, and the politicians need to STFU and concentrate on domestic issues, like our insane debt.
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Old 04-27-2009, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjtgiants View Post
1. How do you guys feel about all this talk of the U.S. torturing detainees?

2. Do you support the U.S. torturing detainees? If so will you be outraged if another country tortures a U.S. citizen or military person?

3. Should people within the previous administration be held accountable for torturing since it's against international law?

I know those are loaded questions, but let's give it a shot. I have mixed thoughts on all three of the questions so I'll hold off.
1. It's 100% reprehensible. We are the shining light, it shouldn't be the shining light of losing your human rights because some asshat thought it was important to his personal ******* cause of the day.

2. Never. And yeah, if they had a nuke in NYC and torturing the guy would provide the answer, then I'm sorry but 11 million people have to die so that millions more won't have to when the revolution comes. 1 time is to much.

3. Every single person that was in the auth chain should be tried at the Hague and hanged for crimes against humanity. How can we say Darfur is a bad place, or Rwanda is a bad place or <insert bad place here> is, when we commit the most serious crimes against humanity ourselves. Torture is not ok for animals, why in the ******* world would it be ok for humans. I hope GWB and **** Chainey both get the ******* chair. They decided it was ok to toss the bill of rights into the fire. They should be the next fuel source for the flames.

EDIT: Note that other than the torture issue I generally supported GWB. I think that **** Chainey is a totaly ******' psycho though and he's not to be trusted.
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Old 04-27-2009, 08:31 AM
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Glad to see the rest of you can't practice what you preach. Can't have it both ways guys.
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r3dn3ck View Post
1. It's 100% reprehensible. We are the shining light, it shouldn't be the shining light of losing your human rights because some asshat thought it was important to his personal ******* cause of the day.

2. Never. And yeah, if they had a nuke in NYC and torturing the guy would provide the answer, then I'm sorry but 11 million people have to die so that millions more won't have to when the revolution comes. 1 time is to much.

3. Every single person that was in the auth chain should be tried at the Hague and hanged for crimes against humanity. How can we say Darfur is a bad place, or Rwanda is a bad place or <insert bad place here> is, when we commit the most serious crimes against humanity ourselves. Torture is not ok for animals, why in the ******* world would it be ok for humans. I hope GWB and **** Chainey both get the ******* chair. They decided it was ok to toss the bill of rights into the fire. They should be the next fuel source for the flames.
that
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  #15  
Old 04-27-2009, 12:20 PM
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soldiers and civilians are protected by the geneva treaties....not terrorists.

soldiers must wear uniforms, to separate themselves from civilians....

hiding as a civilian, dressing like one and tagrgeting civilians is against the geneva treaties......

as soon as our enemies throw on uniforms, and stop targeting civilians....they will protected by the geneva treaties and the laws of war...

despite what the media, and those sitting behind a desk tell you.....torture does work. it has worked for thousands of years. you just have to have a guy that knows things of value.

is torture wrong? we all have to make that decision for ourselves.....but lets compare apples to apples....there is a big difference between the ethnic cleansing of sierra leone, darfur etc...and interogating a terrorist.

100 men walking into a village, raping the women, cutting off the arms of the men, killing the men.....cutting off womens breast so they cannot breast feed children.....has nothing to with water boarding a taliban fighter, that was captured in afghanistan....that 3 weeks earlier was firing an AK at US forces....
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Old 04-27-2009, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by afterhours View Post
soldiers and civilians are protected by the geneva treaties....not terrorists.

soldiers must wear uniforms, to separate themselves from civilians....

hiding as a civilian, dressing like one and tagrgeting civilians is against the geneva treaties......

as soon as our enemies throw on uniforms, and stop targeting civilians....they will protected by the geneva treaties and the laws of war...

despite what the media, and those sitting behind a desk tell you.....torture does work. it has worked for thousands of years. you just have to have a guy that knows things of value.

is torture wrong? we all have to make that decision for ourselves.....but lets compare apples to apples....there is a big difference between the ethnic cleansing of sierra leone, darfur etc...and interogating a terrorist.

100 men walking into a village, raping the women, cutting off the arms of the men, killing the men.....cutting off womens breast so they cannot breast feed children.....has nothing to with water boarding a taliban fighter, that was captured in afghanistan....that 3 weeks earlier was firing an AK at US forces....
THANKYOU!!!
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  #17  
Old 04-27-2009, 07:05 PM
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I bet if you brought in a hot girl, and said, you can see her naked if you tell us so and so, they'd so confess that ****.
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Old 04-27-2009, 07:08 PM
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I bet if you brought in a hot girl, and said, you can see her naked if you tell us so and so, they'd so confess that ****.
That sounds like Howard Stern and the delivery guy game. ( $50 tip or the girl )
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Old 04-28-2009, 10:41 AM
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What's covered under what treaty that not every nation signed is totally immaterial. We are a civilized nation. Civilized people don't torture others for any reason.

Part of the pride of being free is that you take the risks associated with it. If I have to die because of my freedom, then at least I had my freedom until I died. A short life of freedom and self determination is far more valued than long life under someone's thumb. Ask anyone from Burma, Russia, Cambodia, North Korea or any of the other dozens of authoritarian countries where they get away with using "national security" as a pretense for crimes against humanity.
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Old 04-28-2009, 11:59 AM
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What's covered under what treaty that not every nation signed is totally immaterial. We are a civilized nation. Civilized people don't torture others for any reason.

Part of the pride of being free is that you take the risks associated with it. If I have to die because of my freedom, then at least I had my freedom until I died. A short life of freedom and self determination is far more valued than long life under someone's thumb. Ask anyone from Burma, Russia, Cambodia, North Korea or any of the other dozens of authoritarian countries where they get away with using "national security" as a pretense for crimes against humanity.
I think Americans are forgetting about how horrible 9/11 really was because it happened about 8 years ago.

You can't compare Stalin's tremendous amount of murders in the Soviet Union or the Khmer Rouge's 1+ million murders in Cambodia to U.S. interrogation techniques. These were mass murders of a nations own people.

How many prisoners were murdered at Gitmo? Truly uncomparable.

This whole talk about tortue is dealing with waterboarding. Yes, waterboarding, where a terrorist is dunked under water with the company of a doctor.

This talk doesn't even involve the embarassment of the Abu Ghraib prison. It is not even related the to discussion at all, and can't be used as some sort of counter argument.


So please, anyone at all, tell me what is torture and what is not? Is dunking someone under water that horrific where we cannot do it protect ourselves?
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by r3dn3ck View Post
What's covered under what treaty that not every nation signed is totally immaterial. We are a civilized nation. Civilized people don't torture others for any reason.

Part of the pride of being free is that you take the risks associated with it. If I have to die because of my freedom, then at least I had my freedom until I died. A short life of freedom and self determination is far more valued than long life under someone's thumb. Ask anyone from Burma, Russia, Cambodia, North Korea or any of the other dozens of authoritarian countries where they get away with using "national security" as a pretense for crimes against humanity.
what risks are you taking for your freedom?

it is real easy to sit in front of a computer, or at the starbucks...or watch some idiot on tv spew his/her rhetoric.....but that is a luxury that you/me/we have because somehwere there are guys with rifles protecting us.

some of us are born to fight, to serve.....and some are not. unless you have seen what the world is like outside this country, unless you have seen the attrocities our enemies have done, and plan to do again...you really cannot make a rational judgement.

if you would like to "better" than others and denounce torture....fine. i for one am glad that there are some people that will do what ever is needed to protect you....even if you would denounce the way they do it.....

PS: the accepted method of "waterboarding" does not include a : board or tank of water.
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  #22  
Old 04-29-2009, 10:20 AM
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I have a lot of mixed feelings on this topic, however after thinking about it since its been in the news I think torture is horrible. I don't think there is any evidence it actually works on a consistent basis, and if you have to waterboard someone 200+ times how effective is it? How reliable is the information?

My biggest issue with the whole thing is that we go around preaching to the world about what people should and shouldn't do and here we are doing exactly what we are telling others not to do. It's pretty hard for the U.S. to be a world leader when we are the biggest hypocrites around. I love this country, but no wonder the rest of the world thinks we are a bunch of ********.
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Old 04-29-2009, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by afterhours View Post
what risks are you taking for your freedom?

it is real easy to sit in front of a computer, or at the starbucks...or watch some idiot on tv spew his/her rhetoric.....but that is a luxury that you/me/we have because somehwere there are guys with rifles protecting us.

some of us are born to fight, to serve.....and some are not. unless you have seen what the world is like outside this country, unless you have seen the attrocities our enemies have done, and plan to do again...you really cannot make a rational judgement.

if you would like to "better" than others and denounce torture....fine. i for one am glad that there are some people that will do what ever is needed to protect you....even if you would denounce the way they do it.....

PS: the accepted method of "waterboarding" does not include a : board or tank of water.
Im totally against torture because it has been proven time and time again that it provides unreliable information. There are FAR better and more effective and reliable ways to collect the information.

As a citizen of a civilized nation i find it appalling that torture of any kind is used.

And I have spent 4 years in the military and spend years overseas.

I agree 100% with R3d, this is a nation that is about preserviing and fighting for freedom. Using technical political loopholes and geographical locations to condone such methods and conduct are an insult to this country. Freedom has never been free.

We need to hold ourselves to a higher standard to demonstrate to other countrys that strength is not derived by stripping the rights away from people and holding them captive with no explanation for 5-6 years other than "we think you might be one of them". We need to show that true strength comes with integrity and humanity, not with barbaric brutality.

I would REALLY like to see how many false leads and bad information we had to shift through in order to find a single good lead from torture. Im sure if we had spent our energy with the multitude of intelligence gathering abilities we have we would have same millions of dollars and still found the same good information.

Getting good information from torture is a fluke, not the norm.
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  #24  
Old 04-29-2009, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jjtgiants View Post
I have a lot of mixed feelings on this topic, however after thinking about it since its been in the news I think torture is horrible. I don't think there is any evidence it actually works on a consistent basis, and if you have to waterboard someone 200+ times how effective is it? How reliable is the information?

My biggest issue with the whole thing is that we go around preaching to the world about what people should and shouldn't do and here we are doing exactly what we are telling others not to do. It's pretty hard for the U.S. to be a world leader when we are the biggest hypocrites around. I love this country, but no wonder the rest of the world thinks we are a bunch of ********.
This bolded question is answered in the video I already posted.

So for those that disagree with waterboarding, please tell me another way to get information out of TERRORISTS?

Last edited by PistonsFan102; 04-29-2009 at 06:50 PM.
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  #25  
Old 04-30-2009, 10:24 AM
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This bolded question is answered in the video I already posted.

So for those that disagree with waterboarding, please tell me another way to get information out of TERRORISTS?
HA HA....you want me to buy into what you are saying based on something fox news and that asshat sean hannity says or the person he interviews. I'm positive I can find several videos on CNN or MSNBC where they interview former CIA and FBI agents who actually did that **** and will say it doesn't work because the information isn't reliable. What happens when you waterboard some dude 100 times and he really doesn't know anything, well eventually he'll say whatever just to make you stop. That's the problem, when in distress people will say whatever it takes to get out of the situation.

I don't claim to have all the answers, if I did I'd be sitting somewhere a lot more important than where I'm sitting now. I'm not saying good old fashion police work or spy work will solve everything, but **** it why do that when you can just torture people Maybe our police departments should start torturing people for information.

So will the republican party be known as the party of torture? If so that should play out nicely in the next election

Last edited by jjtgiants; 04-30-2009 at 10:33 AM.
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  #26  
Old 04-30-2009, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jjtgiants View Post
HA HA....you want me to buy into what you are saying based on something fox news and that asshat sean hannity says or the person he interviews. I'm positive I can find several videos on CNN or MSNBC where they interview former CIA and FBI agents who actually did that **** and will say it doesn't work because the information isn't reliable. What happens when you waterboard some dude 100 times and he really doesn't know anything, well eventually he'll say whatever just to make you stop. That's the problem, when in distress people will say whatever it takes to get out of the situation.

I don't claim to have all the answers, if I did I'd be sitting somewhere a lot more important than where I'm sitting now. I'm not saying good old fashion police work or spy work will solve everything, but **** it why do that when you can just torture people Maybe our police departments should start torturing people for information.

So will the republican party be known as the party of torture? If so that should play out nicely in the next election
"The person he interviewed" was an advisor to president Clinton for 20 years.

You still didn't answer my question. What should we do then to extract informaton out of these terrorists?

If they waterboarded a prisoner 100times and he honestly doesn't know anything, I probably wouldn't upset (call me inhumane). It's not like these people including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, didn't kill any innocent Americans on 9/11 or anything
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Old 04-30-2009, 01:22 PM
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"The person he interviewed" was an advisor to president Clinton for 20 years.

You still didn't answer my question. What should we do then to extract informaton out of these terrorists?

If they waterboarded a prisoner 100times and he honestly doesn't know anything, I probably wouldn't upset (call me inhumane). It's not like these people including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, didn't kill any innocent Americans on 9/11 or anything
Who cares if it was a former Clinton advisor.

I don't know the answer to your question because I'm not a trained CIA or FBI agent and neither are you so for you to say that torturing is the ONLY way is a bit narrow minded. I would assume they would use some of the same techniques they use with mobsters or any other criminal organization. Yes, I realize terrorists are different that mobsters, it was just an example.

So let me ask you a question.....You say you don't care if we waterboarded a prisoner even if they didn't know anything.....does that only pertain to middle eastern people?
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  #28  
Old 04-30-2009, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by PistonsFan102 View Post
You still didn't answer my question. What should we do then to extract informaton out of these terrorists?
i say give them a trial, give them a chance to prove they are not terrorists, if it is confirmed they are terrorists, well, we know the knowledge is in thier brain right? fastest way to get that out is to spray it all over the wall with a bullet.

i couldnt care less what information a terrorist might have, if he is proven to be a terrorist then just kill him. Im sure he would me bore than happy to sit there and give false information all day long cause he knows we would have to use money, manpower and other resources to prove it is true.

Rather than waste tax payer dollars keeping him alive, feeding him, giving him medical attention, and torturing him, spend 20 cents on a bullet, kill him, then throw his carcass in the garbage with the rest of the trash we dont care about.

we can get the information we need through other means. Torture is not a good method of obtaining good intelligence.
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  #29  
Old 04-30-2009, 01:51 PM
PistonsFan102's Avatar
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I'll agree, I don't know why there weren't or are any military tribunals. But I'm sure most are terrorists anyway.

People would be just upset with killing them as opposed to torture (not me, I'm pro death penalty for anything inolving murder, child rape, or even a $50 milllion ponzi scheme), but others will see it as still inhumane.

This is by far a controversial subject, but I don't think its one of the things Obama needs to worry about now. Much bigger things are on his plate now, unfortunately.
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  #30  
Old 04-30-2009, 02:44 PM
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Most of these "terrorists" that are caught and tortured are usually just little pawns. Do you really think they know much of the "master" plan? They were probably told by someone else to strap this bomb on your back or go kill these people without really knowing what it was for. It's just what they were brought up believing so they go along with it. They probably could not tell you any such major targets or anything about "head" terrorists.
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