Who made 50hp/tq over a 4.6? You going by r3d's mail order tune on a mustang dyno only turning 5200?

From the best I can tell, without longtubes and a good intake, your gonna be stuck near the 4.6 in terms of hp(maybe a few hp more) but the tq is gonna blow the 4.6 outa the water.

 

5.4 intake is still a few weeks out at best. Bob hasn't been able to spend much time corresponding with me while he's getting the intakes to market. At least the waiting is nearly over.

that's basically it. If you set up your 5.4 to handle the extra cubes it will CRUSH a 4.6 2v on hp and tq. It's really important to your sanity if you're going to undertake this project to understand that dyno numbers are simply a tuning tool. Racetrack times are a measure of speed. Don't forget that there's more than 1 800hp civic that can't get out of its own way. hp = bragging rights, tq=power on the ground.

That pull of mine everyone references that was 50h/50t over a typical bolt-on GT was the very first one on my combo which is destined for multiple iterations of head/cam/intake/exhaust combos. I'm using it as an anvil basically. The motor was designed to run the 5.4 specific intake and longtubes and a MUCH hotter tune. All 3 of those items aren't ready yet. Once they are... I'm predicting 340/365 with a street tune.

Consider though... just on cubes I got 50 extra on both sides and it's there from idle to redline, doesn't cost me any more gas, never has to be refilled, and it'll run for 200K miles.

 

Awesome, dont get me wrong HP is awesome and all but i love that low torque and seat-of-the-pants feel. You say the intake is a few weeks out at best? Is this timeline when it will be available to the public or just the prototype intake? How is the longtube part coming along?
Sorry for pokin so much but im hoping that it could be available by mid/end of summer....Im not made of money but i think a 5.4 w/ the HPS specific intake, longtubes would perform quite nicely...would that be dumb to go that route without doing heads/cams?
Also, this will fit in the 96-98 mustangs right? Ive talked to a couple people about this swap and they all ask me about the computer being the same?? You use the 5.4 injectors and wiring right? Thanks in advance haha, this swap is amazing...big motors, mmm

 

few weeks till it's shipping out last I heard. Longtubes are another story. That company is a PITA to deal with so far. BBK's and a couple hundred bucks at at the local exhaust shop are my recommendation in the short term.

I think without ported heads you're leaving a lot of power on the table. If you're not going to do the heads you should probably at least do a a stage 1 cam to stretch the power band out little.

No matter how little you do, it's a m-er f-er of a different beast. You'll like it. 96-98 is no different. You'll want to make sure and transfer your water pump and coil packs for maximum simplicity.

 

mustang dynos and dynojets are not necesarily different. don't count on bigger numbers from a dynojet. go run one and then note the difference. you may find 260/340 is about right on any dyno.

 

While I normally agree, this particular dyno has allways read about 10-12% lower than the other local dynojets that all seem to be about on par with the others nationwide to a degree. Even at 260/340, with a k&n, x pipe and flows that is very stout considering its got stock heads/cams and an intake designed for a much smaller 4.6. This is also, as r3d stated, something that never has to be filled and should run quite a while. Lightly Bolton mustangs on this mustang dyno read about 210whp or so for reference.
Either way you cut it, this is a damn good swap that, as I have shown, can be done for VERY cheap

 

So you use 5.4 injectors, 4.6 computer/ecu(same thing?), 4.6 water pump, 4.6 coil packs right? So if i were to use the upcoming HPS intake, some ported PI heads? would that be worth it or...how much is porting of heads usually cost? Then use a comp cam recommended earlier? the xe680 or whatever that was?

 

the injectors will depend on how far you go. You need to choose the flow that fits your power output. In general I'd recommend 30# injectors for a performance application. Otherwise, you'll want to try and find a set of 21/22's or 24's. 19's just aren't enough if you're going past a bone stock swap. 5.4 an 4.6 water pumps are generally the same thing year to year. Use the correct pulley (see back a few pages for a discussion of that). 4.6 coil packs and wires should work great.

Basically, if you're going to do much of anything to it beyond a mild cam (comp xe262ah or vt stage 1 equivalent), then it only really makes sense to go the whole 9 yards. So, if you're just barely clearing budget, grab a PI 5.4 and a set of mild cams and you're off and running. 30# injectors still recommended here. Without the cam... meh 19-30. I still prefer 30's. My 21's run out of flow around 6K rpm. The HPS intake just makes this so much nicer and should be worth a few ponies. The HPS intake will require aftermarket fuel rails or the extension of your stock 4.6 fuel rail crossover. Neither is super hard to accomplish or very expensive.

If you want to go anywhere past that point, then do the wickedest P&P heads you can afford (1200-2500k new, 400-1200 used), at least a stage 2 cam (comp xe270ah or vt stage 2 equiv), longtube headers, HPS intake, mandatory 30lb injectors, and a bigger fuel pump.

BTW guys, I just bought 2 terminator factory fuel pumps. They've got 10K on em, also have a spankin new SVT focus pump. Focus pump is 100 shipped to any 5.4 swapper, 1 cobra pump is 85 + shipping, both cobra pumps are 170 shipped.

 

More questions haha, what size injectors came stock on 4.6 and 5.4's?? As for the fuel rails i assume when the intake comes out those details will be worked out? Also, i never quite understood the timing cover issue, why do you have to swap it out?? Would a new throttle body be required for the 'mild' setup you mentioned earlier? And, 30 lb injectors will work fine for the mild setup too correct?

 

19lb I believe.


The 5.4 intake is a bit wider so it is an easy fix, just have to lengthen the cross over feed line that connects the 2 fuel rails.

The 5.4 has a taller deck then the 4.6 so the timing cover is also taller for them. Hopefully that helps and if I am wrong someone please correct me. I will let R3d. or another one of the more versed guys field the TB and 30lb questions.

Wow I took a while to make my first post here.

 

THanks, i know its a little taller but why cant you use the existing 5.4 cover?

 

Who said you cant use the stock 5.4 cover?

 

He's saying you can't use the 4.6 cover.

 

My friend is working on my supercharger bracket. As soon as he is done I should be able to drop my motor in and then I can let you guys know how the flow tech headers fit.

 

saleen you're a rockstar! Great progress.

Stock 5.4 2v's came with 19's and 21's just like the 4.6 2v's but the 5.4 and possibly the 6.8 also came with 24's in at least 1 application.

TB and Injector issue: 30lbs squirters make it easier to accurately deliver fuel at higher rpm without going to the edges of their duty cycle, and since very few (like nobody) will let a bone stock 5.4 go unmolested under their hood it's just easier to put in units that you won't have to replace if you go from mild to fairly wild. As for TB's... stock mustang TB is 65mm. You'll want at minimum a 70mm TB. I'd go to a full 75mm TB and aftermarket plenum.

 

we need to get as many of thse 5.4 powered monsters together and see if one of the mags would do a story about them. that would raise some eyes to the companies that there is a bigger following to this swap .

 

w00t

 

Thats my goal with this car. Get in a mag and I'm done spending money unless something breaks.

 

R3d, I ran across a post you made on corral, you said on your tests back to back the typhoon lose 10hp and 26lbtq, was this a simulated test? I was not aware that you had strapped your car to a dyno prior to the "baseline numbers" thread you posted?

 

nope... I worked with Saleen S330 to get those tests done. We spent weeks going back and forth. He went to the dyno with his Saleen and I helped him try to get the thing tuned for the Typhoon manifold.

He liked the top end on it but it did in fact cost power.

 

We'll call that intake a China made pc of sh*t! LOL

 

what increase in power does the harballr 4.6 make over stock?

 

So he lost power down low, but gained it in the upper revs? Noticed you said he liked the topend, which to me says he must have gained in the topend. How did you help him tune it? He would send you the dynosheet, you would adjust and resend it to him?

 

depends on the config. Like always ported head and cammed cars as well as FI cars see the best results.

The best example I can give is one of the earliest dynos of it was a car with too much cam and ported heads. It made good power but was a total dog down low. The 4.6 Hardball'r picked up the power down low quite a bit and added a little peak over the PI. It basically took an overcammed dog and made it a nice streetable car.

Nope... he lost 10/26 peak... the power delivery was smoother and didn't lean over as dramatically so the SOTP feel was that it improved the experience. He and I spent time on the phone and emailing back and forth trying to get his fuel and timing curves correct. We focused mainly on the fuel curve. The car with the Typhoon and the ebay style plates seemed to run richer than the PI intake and Reichard plates.

I have a SCT tune file that's just fine for most common NA builds.

 

Damn good info dude, I would have thought the peak power would have picked up. Okay, next q. I know your going with the 5.4 hardballr when it comes out, wanna sell me your 4.6 hardballr? I am going back to the dyno soon and wanna squeeze every last bit of hp out of the 5.4 2v before going 4v 5.4. It appears the typhoon want do it for me, and an RR intake is out of the question since I really dont wanna spend 1500 on a combo that Im not gonna be keeping(that long). I just liked how the RR intake picked up 30ish peak hp over the PI intake in the MM&FF install on that basicly stock 5.4 auto and extended the revs on out a bit

 

Depends on if bob wants it back or not. He sent it to me as a research sample and has mentioned putting it on display in their shop as the father of the 5.4 intake.

If he'll let me keep it then yeah... I'll sell it to you on the cheap.

 

He is more than welcome to have it back after i get some numbers with it if thats what you all want. I just wanna end the 5.4 2v on the highest possibly hp/tq note that I can to try to debunk the "5.4 2v isnt a good idea" theory. I need to know asap about it though!

 

sure thing. sounds like a plan. I'll send you a PM.

 

Ill clean out my PM's now

 

saleenride, can you take a pic of the supercharger bracket? i'm gonna start on mine as soon as i get dyno'd for NA...