what is the stock timing set at? for manuals

 

whats timing

 

10 degrees is the stock timing curve? (Im not sure)

 

Stock timing is 10 if you are using a timing adjuster. Actual timing varies thru out the rpm range. That's why a tune is better than a timing adjuster.

 

oh...

well whats the purpose for this timing curve? Does it do anything helpful for you? I always see people say that they "retard" their timing 1-2 degrees.

 

Retarding the timing is most often used when you are running a power adder. Too much timing will cause detonation which will kill you motor. Adavncing the timing makes more horsepower. When I had the timing adjuster I ran best at 14 any more than that and the car ran a little rough. Also when advancing the timing you will need to run a higher octane gasoline. During the racing season when I use my advanced tune I run 93 octane, off season I flip the tune to the 85 octane position.

 

Also when you get your car from the factory it has a "safe" tune. You can make as much as 15-20 more hp over the factory tune by leaning out the a/f mixture and advancing the timing.

 

Well said Dean!!!!!


Think of a motor as a big air pump. As you squirt fuel, you get an explosion and air gets pushed out and sucked in. The rest after that is all about preventing detonation which is when you get explosion before spark.

As the octane of the fuel increases, the fuel becomes more resistant to detonation. It also burns slower. This means you can advance the timing so that the spark occurs earlier on the upstroke. This coupled with the slower burn, creates more work....thus hp.

As you get more lean, the motor becomes more efficient and you generate more hp (to a point), but can cause detonation problems. So you can see, it is a constant battle.

This is why your car's computer changes the timing and fuel curves (a/f) throughout the rpm range. At 4,500 rpms, the timing is at the peak advance (I think) but usually running the most rich. Make sense?

There are other factors that also affect detonation such as compression pressure, ambient temperatures, and motor load. A car with 87 octane gas, pulling a boat, going uphill in the summer will have the greatest risk of detonation.

Guys who run a blower or nitrous REALLY have to watch detonation due to heat/compression. This is why they REATARD the timing and run colder plugs. The colder plugs actually pull more heat out of the cyclinder head resulting in a drop in temp and thus, less chance of detonation (also called "pre ignition", "knock", "pinging")

I have read a college study where a Civic motor was made to generate 750 hp by doing nothing more than advancing the timing and running very high octane fuel, but the motor melted.

 

Wow, thanks for the detailed input Blue02GT and MT#1. So I guess I can change my timing to 11-12 on my stock motor safeley and be able to see a HP gain? You said that the timing curves upon your RPM range, so when you go out to set youor own timing do you have to do it for each RPM range? or is it a one step process, or am I just full of bologne...

 

Thanks!

The stock advance is set at 10 degrees. This changes in either 400 or 500 rpm increments across the rpm range. When you add a TA and advance the timing to say 11 (or one more degree advance), you have now added one degree of advace across the board...evenly.

When you have a standard chip or programmer, the timing is advanced proportionally depending on the rpm range and depending on the exact tune. You don't do anything...it does it for you. The amount of advance will be variable arcoss the rpm range.

You really need to go to at least 14 degrees advance (+4) before you see much hp gain. You can go as much as perhps 16 with say 94 octane.

If you have a TA, what you would do is put high octane in the tank. Advance the timing to say 13. Then find a large hill. Drive up the hill in fourth and be sure to get over 4,000 or even 4500 rpms. This will create the greates opportunity for pinging. If you get pinging, then turn back on the timing. If not, then advance it more. That is traveling pretty fast, though, so you can try it in lower gears, but the tendancy to ping will be greates in 4th.

 

BTW, is your Saleen n/a? If you have a blower, I would not do any of this untill you get a lot more experience. Blowers are really touchy and I would assume that the saleen tune is just what you need.

 

Hey guys,
I've heard several different descriptions of what pinging sounds like on other forums. I've never actually heard an engine pinging. Can someone explain what engine pinging sounds like? Thanks.

 

Got to it before me Mikey

And MT#1...mine is n/a but later down the road I want to add a supercharger but that is long from now. Right now I'm saving for gears and an X pipe then I'll have to start the long save down for the supercharger. However a chip/programmer might find its way into the Saleen before that.

Also, is there a diffference between a chip and a programmer? Isn't a chip just a chip and a programmer that big bulky thing with the screen in the middle? If the programmer allows you to tune your car, how do you tune your car if you just have a chip?

OR does it come with a chip AND programmer and you program the chip with your programmer... :dontknow:

 

Pinging can sound a few different ways. A bad case will sound like marbles in your motor. A lighter case might make it sound a little bit like you are driving a diesel. It is sort of a "ta - ta - ta" sound that seems to eminate from under the dash. Once you hear it, you don't forget it.

Now, on to the chip/programmer question.

You car has a computer called an ECU. If is under the passenger side dash behind the kick plate on the side of the car. The ECU is programmed to run your car. A chip can be placed into a slot in the computer box, sort of like adding a new video card to your PC. This chip has a different program that over-rides the stock computer.

Once a computer is installed, you will always be able to tell it was there. A chip can not generally be re-programmed w/o removing it and sending it away. Or, a tuner can do it on-site. Also, there are packages from SCT that allow a driver like me or you to do it, but they are pricey. Chips, generally offer some programming advantages over tuners such as two-step rev limiters and turning off the traction control systems.

But, generally speaking, a programmer and a chip can do about the same things. Some chips and programmers give you the ability to have multiple tunes for different ocassions. I have 4 programs on mine. Say you have teenagers and you want to limit the throttle to 70% when they are driving and govern the speed to 80 mph, no problem with the right chip/tuner. Want to run nitrous? You can have a separate tune for that too. Like to add 100 octane at the track...well, you get the picture.

Programmers (unlike chips), download a program to the ECU w/o using an actual chip. You do this via the OB Diagnostic port. This is called "flashing".

The TWO biggest advantages of a programmer over a tuner are:

1 - You can read and clear SES codes
2 - They don't void warrenties. Before taking a car in for service, simply put your stock tune back on (this is a must) and no one will know the tune was ever there.

The advatages of chips:
1 - You can quickly switch between tunes (takes seconds, where a programmer takes about 5 minutes).
2 - Programmers can pose serious consequences while downloading if something goes wrong like the cord gets unplugged or the car's battery goes dead in the middle of a flash. If this happens, the car is dead for up to two weeks waiting for a fix. The ECU and the programmer have to both be sent away. While avoidable, this does happen.
3 -Chips offer better programming abilities.

Hope this helps!

 

Here is a photop of what my SCT 4 Position switch looks like. I can rotate the dial to change my programs. I can also set it so that the car can not be started.

 

Wow...that is crafty. So how do you load 4 programs into a chip? like you did?

 

Not crafty at all. The chip is designed that way and programed by the tuner. The chip costs $325 with two custom tunes, and is generally about $75 for each additional one.

There are different banks on the chip that store the different tunes.

 

hmm so pinging is like a ta-ta sound...is that the sound im hearing when I start my car and let it sit there to warm up? I mean...say I start my car..and its idling at like 1,000 rpm's cause its cold outside...and then I hear a little TA-TA sound and then the needle goes down to about 800 rpm's...And then after another minute I hear another TA-TA..and the needle drops to like 600 rpms......
is that "GOOD" pingin just cause the engine is warming up and going to its normal idle RPM..which is 600 prm's for my car.

the TA_tA sound is very soft though..

 

Tuners also have the 2step rev limiter and can turn traction control off and o2's off also.

Dustin

 

I knew about the o2's, but not about the two-step. That must be a new thing.

 

Nope. That's just rough start from cold plugs and incomplete combustion. Not pinging, but then again, I am not listening to your car.

Younger people are not used to pinging. In the old days, all the cars did this especially once they had miles on them. These days, tunes are soo good.

 

My timing is set to 14*

 

So basically a Programmer just advances the "ignition" timing to a certain degree, right?
If you install a Timing Adjuster and advance the timing to 14* it will adjust the valves to open sooner, which in turn should cause the computer's original ignition degree to advance, correct?
I would say that the Timing Adjuster would be the better choice of timing advancing in that case.

 

No. The valves are controlled mechanically by the cam. By advancing the timing, what you are doing is advancing the spark. This means that the spark fires earlier or sooner. The spark always occurs before the cylinder reaches top dead center. On a stang, the stock setting is 10 degrees advance. By advancing the timing further, say to 14, now the spark ocurrs 4 degrees sooner than before.

Advancing the spark results in more hp, but you need higher octane fuel.

A TA, advances the timing mechanically....the same advance at every rpm range. Your cars computer, however, adjust the amount of advance differently across the rpm range. This is what a chip/programmer does too.

You really need to do this because the air/fuel ratio also changes across the rpm range. It is really all very sophisticated, but trust me when I say that a tuner/chip/programmer is a much better way to advance timing than a TA.

The only person who should really use a TA is someone who drag races a lot and wants to personally control the amount of advance for weather, octane of fuel used, etc... or for running nitrous for someone who races and likes to change the amount of shot.

 

Thanks MT for the info. I can see that by advancing the ignition timing from a Tuner/Chip would be the better way to add some ponies.

I was just wondering though..
Where does the cars computer get it's timing information from? I mean what mechanical part of the engine would it get it from? The computer learns to change itself for different conditions, like weather and different octane fuels, but why would it not be able to monitor cam timing?

If you have advanced your ignition timing with a Programmer for instance.. Would installing a T/A be simply pointless or can you get a few extra horses out of changing the valve timing with the stock cams? How about without the Tune?

Maybe I'm clueless, but I thought a T/A set the valve timing, not the ignition timing.

 

Ok, I will try to handle all of our questions:

The entire engine is controlled by a computer called an ECU. The ECU has a program that can be changed. The inputs come from many, many places. Basically, every temp, every sensor is monitored by the ECU is one way or another. So the ECU gets the timing information from it's own internal program. The amount of timing advance across the rpm range is pre-programmed. As far as I now, it does not change on it's own based on conditions.

The ECU also controls the fuel trims. The ECU controlls how much fuel is added based on MAF input, engine temp, 02 signals, and many more inputed data. Also, the rpm is an important factor and how much load is on the motor. This is a very complex process that would take pages and pages to explain.

When you add a performance tune from a chip or programmer, you are changing the way in which the computer responds to the inputed data. The new tune changes the way the ECU thinks and responds with the goal of adding more power. The reason why you can only get about 8 - 10 hp from a chip is because cars these days are tuned so well from the factory.

TA's change ignition timing and that is it. You can't change valve timing....that is fixed based on the cam design. Changing cams often times requires getting a new tune depending on how radical of a change you are making wiht the cam.

Using a TA to advance your timing AND a programmer/chip to advance timing is not a good idea.

 

The engine gets all of it's timing information from the EEC
(the computer). You are better off going with a tune to adjust the timing because it will retard or advance the the timing through out the entire rpm range. A timing adjuster does make power but it is a "global" setting, in other words if you advance your timing 4 degrees to 14 it will be at 14 and 14 only. A chip or flash tune might be 10 at one point and as much as 22 at another. SCT has a data base of tens of thousands of dyno runs with every imaginable combination of mod's. I ran a timing adjuster and made good power, I then got a SCT chip and the difference was that my stock engine pulls all the way through the traps and I picked up and addtional 4 mph. If you can afford the additional 150 dollars I would recommend a tune.

 

Well explained guys, thank you.

I was thinking that the T/A was a cam adjuster, that's where the confusion was.