Hey folks.

How much work is involved with a 16valve to 32valve engine swap?

every now and then i see deals on mach 1 engines and lincoln aviator etc. you can find these engines for sale for under 2,500 with relativly low miles.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/03-04...spagenameZWD1V


1) Would this fit the stock auto tranny in an 04gt?

2) how would it work with the stock CPU would i need to replace it?

3) As far as an engine being a 4.6l 32valve from an aviator, other than the intake manifold how much are they different?

4) Any other parts i will definatly need to get this working?

5) Anything i should seriously consider doing to the engine before putting it in the mustang? (headers, cams, any low-cost hard to install while engine in car parts etc...)

6) Other than the 32valve engine and intake setup and some visual stuff, how different is the Mach1 drivetrain?

Not really looking at doing this anytime soon, but maybe sometime late next year or early 09. I just want to see if this is even a viable option.

And to answer the common responces..

Q) Why not just buy a mach 1?
A) I like my GT, i dont want to start over and have to redo various things.

Q) Why not just supercharge it?
A) Well i would really like to, but hey, im looking at other ideas to see how difficult they would be. Besides, the 32valves can hold more power than a 2v, i could always SC/Turbo it later down the road and safely have 450 hp. Plus I could then sell the GT engine for about 1,500 or so and the new engine really only cost me about 1000-1500.

 

Why not just buy a Mach? LMAO

 

lol... cause it would be easier to swap the engine than move all the **** on the GT over to the mach1.

Plus with as much as i have/am/andwill have paid on this GT I aint never giving it up.

lol

im pretty stoked though, i saw my pay statement today. Normally my payment is 480/mo, however, ive been paying 500/mo. Even that small amount has dropped my base payment quite a bit over time.

and now im finally breaking the 200-interest/300 principle mark. Each payment the balance falls further towards principle on a trend of about 10 bucks a month. So, in 10 months if i keep payments like this i should be putting about 400 per month in principle, and 100 in interest.

of course i suck at math and im just looking at the principle/interest amounts and it has been ticking 10 dollars a month over.

So, with that in mind, i am hoping that by next year i wont be upside down on the value/vs/payout.

If i keep this up im hoping that if i dump extra into it when i can with bonuses and tax returns i can have it paid off in 2 years... but that probably wont happen. lol.

this thing really was a lousy decision. i wish i would have thought about it more before i bought it. I probably would have started with a slightly used 2003 mach1 and owed less than i do now.

I think an engine swap would be fun though, however im not as hard of a gearthead as r3d so i think a 5.4l 2v swap would be a bit out of my league.

 

5.4 cough cough

It's not hard. You'll need an underhood harness, motor, intake, some cooling system pieces, exhaust manifolds, intake and a correct flywheel if the aviator is 8 bolt. Sell the aviator intake and get a 01 cobra intake if you can. They make better average power.

You can use the 2v ECU but it'll need a complete retune including gobs of dashpot changes. Don't trip, your tuner can handle it pretty easily. Everything else is pretty much straight bolt on.

A 5.4 2v swap makes the same hp as your average stock-ish 4v 4.6 (at the wheels) and makes 30lbs more tq with adapter plates and should be easily 15-20hp/tq or more higher with the new HPS intake. It's WAY simple and pretty stupidly cheap. Then there's the 3v and 4v upgrades and blower/turbo options later on.

 

Dude, you have like 3,300 posts in yer 5.4l 2v swap.

if the 5.2v swap is easy, down to brass tax, how much is involved without readin 3,300 posts?

lol

 

The swap really is that simple. There is ONLY a few things that have to be changed. Put it this way, to swap in a 5.4 can be done in a day easily. In fact, much quicker and cheaper than going from a 302 to a 5.4 in a fox. Just so much stuff is reusable from engine to engine. The ONLY thing one needs is a 5.4 shortblock, chains and guides, and adapter plates and thats it. In the world of swaps, this has been by far the easiest Ive ever encountered(ive done mod fox swaps, 302 to 351, etc...)

I honestly dont know why anyone would ever put a 2v 4.6 back into there mustang, the cost to do one or the other boils down to a few bucks.

To the poster, I too recommend a 5.4 2v swap.

 

jack, send me your email addy in a PM and I'll send you an article that I used as a how to. Singlesupra just did his in record time. Basically it's going to go together just like a straight 4.6 swap. You'll need adapter plates for the intake or a 5.4 HPS intake, swap your oil pan over, modify 2 heater hoses (I used hardware store fittings and Kragen hose) and you'll need a front cover and timing kit. It's so ugly cheap to do a base swap you'll freak.

If you still got my number, give me a call. I'll run you through the bits of it and let you pick my brain. If not, include your number and a time to call.

 

or Jack could ship his car out to cali and we can do it for him

 

Yeah... Jared and me and Jared's bud Travis are pretty much pro at it now. Mine was harder than most.

Hey jared... if you guys got a photo gallery of the swap, shoot me a link. I want to add a few shots to my web page.

 

k, ill give travis a call tonight.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/5-4-L...em270198964932

^That will really complicate your formulas

 

putting that in a street car would be like putting a diamond in a rock garden.

 

and if i was loaded, i would totally be putting that diamond in my garden.

 

ditto. juss sayin

 

The 5.4 2V makes nowhere near the power a 4.6 4V.

 

really. your first post and you just have a blanket statement with no backup. Nice. Instead of starting off with a dolts reputation why don't you back it up.

Will one of you guys school this boy before he gets my ire up.

 

Well, we don't want that! Back-up provided.

5.4 2V:

Saleen S 330:
Power/Tq: 289/361 (imperfect tune)
Shortblock: Stock 03 5.4L F150
Pistons:Stock Rods:Stock Crank:Stock
Cams: Stock
Heads: Patriot Stage 2
Intake: PI w/ Reichard Racing adapter plates
Exhaust: FRPP shorty

r3dn3ck:
Power/Tq: 279/332 (rich & -timing)
Pistons: Probe SRS -4.5cc
Rods: 3D H-beam w/ arp 2K bolts
Heads: Fox Lake Stage 2
Intake: HPS 4.6 Hardball'r w/ Reichard plates
Exhaust: FRPP Shorties
Cams: Comp XE270ah-13

4.6 4V:

RG = Race Gas
PI = Ported Intake
PSR = Ported Short Runner Intake

Nazman (from Mighty Mustangs) (410/333 SAE) Owner Ported FR500 Heads/FR500 Cams/FR500 Intake. 4.6L HP Champion.
Jims SVT (382/318 SAE). JSR (jims svt) Ported Short Runner. Ported96-98 B head/Cams.
NVENEM8U (381/323 SAE) * Mustang Dyno * B Heads with valve job/Owner Ported Short Runner intake/Competition Cams. post 260 for details.
Jester (mach1 registry) (378/325 STD*) Boss Ported 03 C heads/FR500 cams/FR500 Intake. post 262 for details.
Shawn Johnson (374 SAE) 99' .020 over cylinder bore, valve job, stock cams & intake set up for Factory Stock race class.
Joe Lynch (370/300 SAE) Ported C Heads/PSR Intake/Houston Perf Regrind Cams.
James Hensler (370 SAE) Ported B Head/HCI intake/Cams/RG.
Paul W (364/340 SAE) Ported 04 C Head/Comp Cams. (see post 248 for details)
ITLRUN (363.8/311.3 SAE) Bowl&Valve Work by Boss 330 on 03 heads/FR500 Intake/Stock Mach Cams.
David Simmons (car now owned by C Weil) (360/326 SAE) 5.0L, Ported B Heads/SSR intake/FR500 Cams.
vrtical (360/320 SAE) Ported 01 C Head/Aviator Intake/Crower Cams/RG.
Bob Cosby (356.2@6100/337.4@5000 SAE) 99' .020 over cylinder bore, valve job, stock cams & intake set up for Factory Stock race class.
Silver01Cobra (356/348 SAE) Ported FR500 Heads/Ported Intake/FR500 Cams.
Barry Shepard (350) Ported FR500 Heads/FR500 Intake/Cams/RG.
99BlackVenom (350/329 SAE) Ported FR500's/Extrude Hone Intake/SHM Stage2 Cams.
Grimreaper (347 SAE) Ported Intake/Comp Cams.
Duane V (346/293 SAE) Ported B Head/PI/Crower Regrind Cams/RG.
RedCobraVert (346/318 SAE) Ported C Head/Cams.
Ben 99 GT (343.75/343.50 SAE) PI, 2005 C head. Bolt on HP Champion. (see post #244 for details)
elyrain (337/345 SAE) Ported 01 C head. FR500 valvetrain/cams.
Nazman (from Mighty Mustangs) (337/337 SAE) PI, 99 C head.
huzsvt (337/336 SAE) SHM stage 2 ported intake and stage 1 ported 99 C heads/Crower Cams.
4VMENACE (335/319 SAE) PSR/Ported 97 B head/SHM Cams.
ExplorerThis (from SVTPerformnce) (331.65/323 SAE) 01 C head.
tmhutch (331.6/325 SAE) PSR. 01 C head.
CYA (from SVTPerformnce) (330/320 SAE) Ported, extrude honed intake. 01 C head.
Jeff Peterson (330 SAE) PI. 01 C head.
Stedda (328/321 SAE). 01 C head.
Quick01snake (327/327 SAE). 01 C head.
Jims SVT (326/305 SAE). JSR (jims svt) Ported Short Runner. 96-98 B head.
stockmach1 (mch 1 regstry.com) (324/337 SAE) 03 C head.
4V GTS (322.4/317.9 SAE). C head.
32VHEMIJR (322 SAE) PSR. C head.
BEERFORMEPLZ (321/353! SAE) 04 Mach.
MODSTER (320). C head.
Skyler (320/319 SAE) PI by Naz. C head.
TxSnakeCharmer (320/310 SAE) Extrude Hone Intake. C head.
103 (Dustin) (320/315 STD*). C head.
RUNNINFAST (320/299) B head/ported intake/dome pistons/SHM cams.
bitemark46 (320/298 SAE) owner ported short runner. B head.
Joe98Stang (319/309) C head.
COBRACIDE (319/316) C head.
99SVTAddict (318/315 SAE) PI. C head.
SVT CAMR (318/290 SAE) Ported Intake. 96-98 B head.
Red01 (316/321 SAE) 01 C head.

The trend here is pretty obvious. It's not difficult at all to hit 325 rwhp with a Mach 1, you can hit 330+ rwhp with a Mach or 99+ Cobra without even thinking about cracking a cam cover. The 5.4 2V will never make those kinds of numbers with stock heads and cams. Heck, the 5.4 2V will be lucky to break 330 rwhp WITH heads/cams.

 

so you take the two lowest results you can find and that's your argument? cmon... have a little bit of realism.

Here's the current title holders.
ported head and cam motor, stock compression, longtubes: 340/340
ditto 360/360
ditto 330/356

So, you say a 5.4 2v will never make those numbers... sounds like ignorance met arrogance and had your opinion.

Realize that 5.4's have been in mustangs in extremely limited numbers and there has been zero aftermarket support so dumbasses run their mouths thinking that a lack of historical data means that it is not either possible or practical. Dig your head out of your little narrow world and understand that a little R&D specific to the 5.4 like I'VE BEEN DOING AND YOU clearly HAVEN'T pays off.

If you're going to act like an expert on the subject you'd better come prepared with more than just an opinion.

 

Are these the 5.4 2V record holders? Links?

Even a chimpanzee could see that is well below what comparable 4V 4.6s have made. Read the list I posted, stock head, cam and bottom end 4V 4.6s have made 337 - 344 rwhp! That's with BOLT-ONS only folks. Cam ONLY (+ supporting mods) 4V 4.6s have made over 370 rwhp. H/C/I 4V 4.6s (rpm limited by the STOCK SHORT BLOCK no less) have made 410 rwhp! Are you seeing a trend yet? A 5.4 2V isn't doing any of that. Also realize I did not say the 5.4 2V would never break 330 rwhp, what I SAID is that they would be lucky to break 330 rwhp with heads/cams and that they would never break 330 rwhp with stock heads and cams... like the 4.6 4V will.

So, please prove any statement I have made on this thread at any point wrong. Good luck.

One more time.

N/A 4.6 4Vs with:
- Bolt-ons - have achieved 340+ rwhp SAE
- Bolt-ons + cams - have achieved 370+ rwhp SAE
- Bolt-ons + H/C/I - have achieved 410 rwhp SAE

And we haven't even gotten into what high compression, high rpm stock displacement 4.6 4Vs have made. Can you say 460+?

P.S. The 5.4 2V makes nowhere near the power of a 4.6 4V. Good day.

 

R3D correct me if im wrong on any of this please..


Dont get me wrong, im a big fan of the 4v 4.6! or i wouldnt have posted this thread in the first place. However, i will probably go the route of a 5.4l swap mainly for cost reasons alone. It can be done for below 1,500 and has quite large gains over the 4.6l 2v. Looking at this from a cost perspective (and when u have a 6yr old stepson and a 6month old son cost is a major factor) the 5.4 swap makes more sence.

As far as which is better, 4.6l 4V, vs 5.4l 2v, well, the 4.6l 4V has been used in mustang applications and there are THOUSANDS of people who have modded them and gain spectacular numbers on a non-added setup, it is a proven and true engine and definatly worth looking at.

What R3D is trying to say though is while thousands 4.6l 4V's have been modded and and the numbers show thier capabilitys, the 5.4l 2v is still a large realm of undiscovered potential because it was normally just blown off as impractical. thousands of 4.6l V8's have shown thier potential while the 30-40 5.4L 2V Swaps have a lot of potential and little is known about thier overall capability.

However, R3D and many others are in that small group of people willing to basically say "Damn what everyone else is doing, im gonna try this ****". R3d in particular has done great things with the 5.4L not in HP numbers but in encouraging aftermarket support, he actually has a Prototype intake from HPS i believe on his 2v and is working with other manufacturers to overcome the weakness of the 5.4 which only really exist due to lack of aftermarket accessories to really pull out what these are capable of. He had his dyno run with a shitty tune and already made a massive leap over the 4.6L numbers and has also achieved a motor that pushes out about 300ftlbs of torque at 2,200RPM.

While he has a fully built motor, he still isnt anywhere near tapping the maximum potential of these 5.4L's due to the limitations of what can currently be done with some of the current existing hardware.

I have no doubt that he will be able to pull 380+hp with 400+ftlbs on a non added 2valve.

The discussion over 4.6L DOHC vs 5.4L SOHC is pretty rediculous at this point especially when looking into engine swaps on a Mustang GT.

Mach 1 engine/aviator engine can be had for roughly 2-2,5k. Then you need the extra parts to make it all work and yer looking at about 2.5-3k just to get a working 4.6L swap and have about the same power as a stock Mach1.

You can nab a 5.4L 2v for under 1000 easily, add another 500-600 and you have all the parts for the swap.. Using the adapter plates for the intake and keeping it otherwise stock you can pull 280+hp at the wheels with 300+tq that kicks in super low, which would probably not have a hard time walking a stock Mach1. So right there dirt cheap you can take the 4.6L 4v Stock. Get cams, the HPS intake when it is finished and a good tune and you would have 350hp and a buttload of torque that kicks in at damn near idle, and spend about the same amount it would take just to get a 4.6l 4v swap.

Both engines have thier merits, however from the standpoint of having a 2004 2v GT, and having price as a concern, the 5.4L really does seem to be about the best option for the maximum gains.

There is NOBODY saying that everyone with a Mach 1 or cobra should ditch thier 4.6l 2Valves. Nobody is saying that the 5.4L is better, all that is being said is that at this point in time nobody really knows how far these engines can go in a non added configuration. And right off the bat, the 5.4l swap really seems to make more sence.

 

Stock PI heads aren't going to push a stock bottom end, stock compression 5.4L to a legit 350 rwhp. Throw some ported heads into the equation and you MIGHT see 350 rwhp in conjunction with aggressive cams, and that's a mighty big IF. And guess what, those ported heads just pushed your budget way up, and THEN you're getting close to the limits of the engine platform. The 4V still has PLENTY of growing room at 350 rwhp.

The 2V head has pitiful valve curtain area, the PI 2V head isn't enough head to adequately feed a 4.6, throw that head on the massively long stroke, larger displacement 5.4 and it only amplifies the cylinder heads weakness. And as everyone here should know, the ultimate potential of ANY engine is determined solely by the cylinder heads. Cams, intake, compression, etc are all secondary to the cylinder heads.

 

So are you still just going on what you have heared? or have you done this swap yourself?.....


thought so...

lol

ill let R3d address your points, ill be honest at this point i dont know enough about the 5.4l to defend all the aspects of it. Im sure R3d can touch on this though.

EDIT, the point still stands, 300 at the wheels is cheaper with a 5.4 swap, and it comes with a way nastier torque curve.

Personally, im not trying to reach 10's here. I just want extra power and i dont feel like spending 3-4k on a s/c.

 

I've done one of the swaps in question. And I was a 2V guy before that, had a 295 rwhp 4.6 2V (VT 2s, bullitt, LTs, etc, etc, etc). So yea, I'm pretty damn comfortable on this topic.

 

Dont get me wrong like i said, i really like the 4.6L 4v. Honstly that would be ideal in my view.

However, price is a big issue here.

So, what makes more sence, bagging a 5.4l 2v and doing the swap and running up a 1,500-2,000 bill to get 280+ at the wheels with a nasty torque curve?...

or spending about 3,000+ on a 4.6l 4valve swap that wont give me as much power?


im not worried about 10 years down the road. i dont really care if i have the fastest car in the planet. price is a major concern for me.

Im not overly worried with overall performance capabilities here, EITHER ONE would be an DRASTIC improvement over the 4.6l 2v.

But honestly, unless i could find a DOHC for way way cheap, the 5.4l route looks like the better option.

 

You must be missing some rather large portions of my posts or something. Let's break this down a bit.

- STOCK down to the air filter Mach 1s typically lay down over 270 rwhp.
- Mid-pipe, tune and cat-backs typically net over 300 rwhp in a Mach 1.
- LTs, CAI, etc. will typically net 320-330 rwhp in a Mach 1.
- Cams/heads, etc. will typically net 360 - 380 rwhp in a Mach 1.
- Cams/heads/short runner intake will typically net 380 - 400 rwhp in a Mach1.

THE 5.4 2V WILL NOT NET YOU AS MUCH POWER AS A 4.6 4V! End of story.

The 5.4 2V will need aftermarket cams and a Mustang intake AT THE VERY LEAST to even be any sort of relevant comparison to a stock 4.6 4V. EVEN WITH CAMS the 5.4 2V is still going to be down anywhere from 10 - 30 rwhp when the variables are kept apples to apples. Now what happens when the 4V gets cams?

 

Wow.... and apparently you have missed a lot of what i am saying too.

Ok, im gonna type this real slow in big letters so you can understand me.

A) I DONT WANT 500 ******* HORSEPOWER. I AM NOT LOOKING TO HAVE A FULLY BUILT RACECAR, I JUST WANT A BIT EXTRA KICK AND BOLTONS AINT GONNA DO IT, HOWEVER, AN EXTRA 50 CUBES DEFINATLY HELPS.

B) --------> PRICE <-----------
4.6L 4V RUN ABOUT 2,500 USED ON EBAY. PROBABLY OUT OF A NAVIGATOR, AND WILL REQUIRE MORE MONEY FOR ALL THE PARTS FOR THE CONVERSION UNLESS I LUCK OUT AND FIND ONE OUT OF A MACH1.

5.4L PI CAN BE HAD FOR 300-800 LOCALLY ON CRAIGSLIST ALMOST AT ANY GIVEN TIME. Plus anything i cant do myself, i have plenty of hardcore gearhead buddies who can help me rebuild the engine, swap the cam, and whatever else is needed. That WONT break the bank for me, and ill be able to afford the other stuff needed.

C) it would be fun to do something different than everyone else.


Damn...

You said yer piece, this was my thread that I started, im really getting annoyed with you in here, so how about buzzing off? If i want your opinion i can go onto any 32v forum board in the planet and have them beat this into my head.


Let me assure you if i can bag a 32v 4.6 for 1,500 you bet your *** ill be on it, however, that most likely wont happen now will it??


If you want to have a discussion on this go ahead, but quite frankly your know it all attitude is pretty abrasive and you are more than welcome to see your way out of this thread.

Hell, do you go around bashing people who want a Supercharger because you preffer Turbo?

Do you beat people up for going Dry when you Preffer Wet kits

OH Man i hope i diddnt offend Mr. MUSTANG GOD here. Know-all Gugu of all things petrol run.

Heaven forbid somebody tries another route just because you dont approve of it

get over yerself

 

No, but I correct people who say a wet kit is "safer" than a dry kit.

I don't respect you or your opinion enough to be offended.

Listen, I never "bashed" anyone for choosing the 5.4 2V. Feel free the re-read the posts, you might learn something on the second pass. What I did was attempt to correct some pretty blatant misinformation.

Frankly, I could care less if you put a goddamn 19 HP 1-cylinder Briggs & Stratton in your car. I COULD NOT CARE LESS ABOUT YOUR CAR. However, if you run around saying your new 19 HP Briggs makes more power than a 25 HP Kohler V-Twin you can bet your *** I'm going to tell you you're wrong. Facts are facts.

Deal with it and get over YOURself.

 

Hey Jack,

Have you considered just getting a set of cams, valve springs, and LT headers?

I did this and made 290 hp and 308 tq at the rear wheels. Yeah my torque is no where near a 5.4 but the hp is right there. It is night an day between the stock engine and where it is now the cost should be lower.

It is worth looking into.

 

Wait. Weren't we discussing...

I didn't qualify that so specifically for nothing.

But then you go on to say:
Nope... you're right. Stock heads won't take you to 350. They'll max out at about 315 rwhp but you'll still have 330+rwtq to console you on those lonely nights. But you're still off topic and missing the point.

You don't need really ratty cams. You do need a good cam with a noticeable idle but it's totally street oriented. Oh wait... didn't you say that we couldn't get there at all earlier.

The shortcomings of the 2v head are spoken constantly by people who have only peak absolute max effort capacity on their mind and a lack of willingness to do the work to improve the things they lament so that those aren't factors. I don't like being limited to a 1.84" valve either but I hardly call that the single biggest drawback of the 2v head, though VCA is the biggest advantage of the 3v and 4v heads. I do find it funny that you used a technical term of such obscurity to describe a small intake valve; which I can only assume was meant to obfuscate the point and try to artificially inflate your ethos in the argument. I could be wrong and you use that term in everyday speech but I doubt it.

FWIW, A set of bone stock 2v heads has historically turned out about the same power as a set of ported heads on a 2v 5.4 until you add longtubes to the equation, then both take off but the ported set end up winning by about 50hp. Betcha can't tell me why and be right.

But that's cool man. I knew what I was saying when I said it and you clearly missed that, so lemme repeat and try to read all the words this time. They're all important to the point.
I never said that a ported head and cammed 4v was a matter of comparison. You did. You showed that you jump to conclusions, don't read all the words and then grasp for any piece of data that will support your rebuttal to a conversation you had no part of.

So captain high horse, would you please crawl out from inside everyone's asses and read before you go making any more retarded replies to **** noone ever debated.

Note that I mentioned that AFTER the 5.4 2v install there were 3v and 4v upgrades which would make even more sense then and return huge gains instead of minimal gains. Nowhere did I ever say that a 2v 5.4 will make more than a head and cam treated 4.6 4v.

Here's a napkin for that big steaming STFU sammich.

 

that's not a bad idea... it's definitely gunna be easier on tires heheh.