coil overs
#2
09-11-2006 | 10:10 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 9,865
From: Magrathea/California
Coil over - Education begins now:
Modified macpherson style suspensions like we have stock require a giant spring rate to get a good wheel rate thanks to the spring being close to the pivot point of the suspension while the wheel and strut are all the way to the outside. Coil over puts the spring way on the outside "on" the strut so you can drop your spring rate a LOT and still have a good wheel rate without having a ride that's punishingly stiff. Since the shock and spring are at the same point in the lever arc of the A-arm you can have a very finely tuned shock/strut that is well matched to your spring without having too much or too little as the forces increase and decrease. This means more consistent handling. You also lose unsprung weight, total weight and pick up super easy adjustability of things like ride height, swapping springs and you can use lighter tubular a-arms which help all the more.
The basics are, you'll have a much lighter spring which will react faster to the road, weigh less and allow the wheel to stay with the road easier all without any real sacrifice. You get the effect of a super heavy spring with a really light spring and your ride quality is improved at any wheel rate over what it would be with the old style big spring setup. Almost without fail a properly selected spring and strut package will give you better handling and lose some pounds off the front of your car which helps with weight distribution.
Downsides, not really any. It's a total upgrade. Some systems are poorly made, others are not well engineered and these things cause reliability problems. Maximum Motorsports setups are the best period and they stand directly behind their product, I've tested that and they were soooo easy to deal with. You get surprisingly little argument about that. If you're averse to a rough ride keep the spring rate for front at 300 or below, if you can take a firm but not punishing ride, then 350's up front is about as far as I'd take a street car, 375 if you like to race on tracks with turns. 425 becomes a pretty punishing ride and isn't what I'd call streetable.
If you really want it, then MM a-arms (offset if you NEVER plan on doing their K-member, otherwise non-offset) w/ poly bushings (delrin are LOUD on small bumps), MM bilstein or tokico/koni/stock Coil over kit w/ new struts, 300lb/in springs, MM caster camber plates, MM bumpsteer kit, and you're done.
You won't even know what to do with all the new found front grip but you'll probably end up wanting a PHB in back cuz the new front grip will show the weaknesses in the rear with a spotlight.
Modified macpherson style suspensions like we have stock require a giant spring rate to get a good wheel rate thanks to the spring being close to the pivot point of the suspension while the wheel and strut are all the way to the outside. Coil over puts the spring way on the outside "on" the strut so you can drop your spring rate a LOT and still have a good wheel rate without having a ride that's punishingly stiff. Since the shock and spring are at the same point in the lever arc of the A-arm you can have a very finely tuned shock/strut that is well matched to your spring without having too much or too little as the forces increase and decrease. This means more consistent handling. You also lose unsprung weight, total weight and pick up super easy adjustability of things like ride height, swapping springs and you can use lighter tubular a-arms which help all the more.
The basics are, you'll have a much lighter spring which will react faster to the road, weigh less and allow the wheel to stay with the road easier all without any real sacrifice. You get the effect of a super heavy spring with a really light spring and your ride quality is improved at any wheel rate over what it would be with the old style big spring setup. Almost without fail a properly selected spring and strut package will give you better handling and lose some pounds off the front of your car which helps with weight distribution.
Downsides, not really any. It's a total upgrade. Some systems are poorly made, others are not well engineered and these things cause reliability problems. Maximum Motorsports setups are the best period and they stand directly behind their product, I've tested that and they were soooo easy to deal with. You get surprisingly little argument about that. If you're averse to a rough ride keep the spring rate for front at 300 or below, if you can take a firm but not punishing ride, then 350's up front is about as far as I'd take a street car, 375 if you like to race on tracks with turns. 425 becomes a pretty punishing ride and isn't what I'd call streetable.
If you really want it, then MM a-arms (offset if you NEVER plan on doing their K-member, otherwise non-offset) w/ poly bushings (delrin are LOUD on small bumps), MM bilstein or tokico/koni/stock Coil over kit w/ new struts, 300lb/in springs, MM caster camber plates, MM bumpsteer kit, and you're done.
You won't even know what to do with all the new found front grip but you'll probably end up wanting a PHB in back cuz the new front grip will show the weaknesses in the rear with a spotlight.
#3
09-11-2006 | 10:36 AM
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From: JACKSON NJ
Originally Posted by r3dn3ck
If you really want it, then MM a-arms (offset if you NEVER plan on doing their K-member, otherwise non-offset) w/ poly bushings (delrin are LOUD on small bumps), MM bilstein or tokico/koni/stock Coil over kit w/ new struts, 300lb/in springs, MM caster camber plates, MM bumpsteer kit, and you're done.
You won't even know what to do with all the new found front grip but you'll probably end up wanting a PHB in back cuz the new front grip will show the weaknesses in the rear with a spotlight.
thats pretty much exactly what i was thinkin of doin after posting this same question at sn95forums...
i don't plan on doin a k member
and from what they told me i came up w/ that...
almost exactly that.. except i'm gonna put on eibach sway bars
#4
09-11-2006 | 10:39 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 9,865
From: Magrathea/California
I would wait until you have more rear grip to put on stiffer sway bars. On the track that's a good idea but on the street you'll find the rear too loose and the front too tight like that... it'll be a bit unbalanced. If you want to go to that someday, then I'd plan on a torque arm too. With a torque arm, panhard bar, 4 wheel coil over and eibach sways at front and rear you'll be scaring yourself with how well the car is capable of handling.
Good to know I was giving good advice the whole time though huh?
Good to know I was giving good advice the whole time though huh?
#5
09-11-2006 | 10:44 AM
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From: JACKSON NJ
Originally Posted by r3dn3ck
I would wait until you have more rear grip to put on stiffer sway bars. On the track that's a good idea but on the street you'll find the rear too loose and the front too tight like that... it'll be a bit unbalanced. If you want to go to that someday, then I'd plan on a torque arm too. With a torque arm, panhard bar, 4 wheel coil over and eibach sways at front and rear you'll be scaring yourself with how well the car is capable of handling.
Good to know I was giving good advice the whole time though huh?
Good to know I was giving good advice the whole time though huh?
i ain't planning on racing or nothing like that...
i want something that i can adjust height wise up front...
something with a better ride, better handling, ride a tit lower, and grip a tit better....
i have eibach pro springs and struts and they were kick ***...
but i had terrible wheel hop and i think it could be better...
i also want to keep in near the $1,000 mark...
what would you suggest from all that?
lol... redneck = suspension kt builder man
thanks
#6
09-11-2006 | 10:47 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
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From: Magrathea/California
what shocks and struts do you have now? what rear springs do you have now? any other suspension goodies added?
With that info I can hook you up with some of my leftover coil over and race parts I never used and we can hook you up right.
With that info I can hook you up with some of my leftover coil over and race parts I never used and we can hook you up right.
#7
09-11-2006 | 10:54 AM
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From: JACKSON NJ
Originally Posted by r3dn3ck
what shocks and struts do you have now? what rear springs do you have now? any other suspension goodies added?
With that info I can hook you up with some of my leftover coil over and race parts I never used and we can hook you up right.
With that info I can hook you up with some of my leftover coil over and race parts I never used and we can hook you up right.
right now i'm kinda planning ahead...
once i find a parts car (should cost around 500 bucks)
i'll have around 3 grand for stuff...
so hood and front bumper cover should be around 900 bucks... and wheels from mt should be cheaper...
so i'm lookin at suspension...
#8
09-11-2006 | 11:17 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 9,865
From: Magrathea/California
Ok, I'm assuming that the shock/strut package is engineered by Eibach to match the spring rates of the pro-kit springs so:
Keep your shocks and struts, buy the following:
MM front coil over kit for stock/koni/tokico w/o springs (MMCO-2) $259
My brand new 375# MM sourcedHypercoil springs (12x2.5x375#) $75 (half price)
MM Caster Camber plates (MMCC9994) $200
MM Bumpsteer kit (MMTR-4) $149
MM Forward Offset A-Arm w/ Poly bushing (MMFCA-10) $349 (soooo worth it)
MM Panhard Bar (MMPBA) $330 (weld it in)
MM Rear lower control arms (RLCA30) $330
With that setup you'll be pretty darned happy. You'll be able to step up to a torque arm later and all those parts will still be good, the only thing you'll have to upgrade to go full out is stiffer rear springs. The rear springs and shocks you have now are fine but you need RLCA's to help rid you of the wheel hop. Everything else is to keep the front doing what you want.
You can nix the bumpsteer kit, RLCAs and PHB to start if you want to step into it bit by bit. I've tossed in my front springs at 50% of retail cuz you'll never get them for half price otherwise and they're well matched to your rear spring rate. If you pick another spring/rate then add another 75 bucks to the cost of the springs... I only have the 1 new set of 375's and I'm not going to use them. The shocks and struts you have are fine but not perfect... Bilstein are perfect IMHO. Yours will do just fine and you won't bounce.
You can nix the A-Arms and use your stockers but you'll lose just a bit of handling and turn-in sharpness. Damn... I even gave you part numbers so you don't have to look em' up yourself. I'm a really great human being aren't I.
Keep your shocks and struts, buy the following:
MM front coil over kit for stock/koni/tokico w/o springs (MMCO-2) $259
My brand new 375# MM sourcedHypercoil springs (12x2.5x375#) $75 (half price)
MM Caster Camber plates (MMCC9994) $200
MM Bumpsteer kit (MMTR-4) $149
MM Forward Offset A-Arm w/ Poly bushing (MMFCA-10) $349 (soooo worth it)
MM Panhard Bar (MMPBA) $330 (weld it in)
MM Rear lower control arms (RLCA30) $330
With that setup you'll be pretty darned happy. You'll be able to step up to a torque arm later and all those parts will still be good, the only thing you'll have to upgrade to go full out is stiffer rear springs. The rear springs and shocks you have now are fine but you need RLCA's to help rid you of the wheel hop. Everything else is to keep the front doing what you want.
You can nix the bumpsteer kit, RLCAs and PHB to start if you want to step into it bit by bit. I've tossed in my front springs at 50% of retail cuz you'll never get them for half price otherwise and they're well matched to your rear spring rate. If you pick another spring/rate then add another 75 bucks to the cost of the springs... I only have the 1 new set of 375's and I'm not going to use them. The shocks and struts you have are fine but not perfect... Bilstein are perfect IMHO. Yours will do just fine and you won't bounce.
You can nix the A-Arms and use your stockers but you'll lose just a bit of handling and turn-in sharpness. Damn... I even gave you part numbers so you don't have to look em' up yourself. I'm a really great human being aren't I.
#9
09-11-2006 | 11:30 AM
Thread Starter
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Banned
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,135
From: JACKSON NJ
Originally Posted by r3dn3ck
Ok, I'm assuming that the shock/strut package is engineered by Eibach to match the spring rates of the pro-kit springs so:
Keep your shocks and struts, buy the following:
MM front coil over kit for stock/koni/tokico w/o springs (MMCO-2) $259
My brand new 375# MM sourcedHypercoil springs (12x2.5x375#) $75 (half price)
MM Caster Camber plates (MMCC9994) $200
MM Bumpsteer kit (MMTR-4) $149
MM Forward Offset A-Arm w/ Poly bushing (MMFCA-10) $349 (soooo worth it)
MM Panhard Bar (MMPBA) $330 (weld it in)
MM Rear lower control arms (RLCA30) $330
With that setup you'll be pretty darned happy. You'll be able to step up to a torque arm later and all those parts will still be good, the only thing you'll have to upgrade to go full out is stiffer rear springs. The rear springs and shocks you have now are fine but you need RLCA's to help rid you of the wheel hop. Everything else is to keep the front doing what you want.
You can nix the bumpsteer kit, RLCAs and PHB to start if you want to step into it bit by bit. I've tossed in my front springs at 50% of retail cuz you'll never get them for half price otherwise and they're well matched to your rear spring rate. If you pick another spring/rate then add another 75 bucks to the cost of the springs... I only have the 1 new set of 375's and I'm not going to use them. The shocks and struts you have are fine but not perfect... Bilstein are perfect IMHO. Yours will do just fine and you won't bounce.
You can nix the A-Arms and use your stockers but you'll lose just a bit of handling and turn-in sharpness. Damn... I even gave you part numbers so you don't have to look em' up yourself. I'm a really great human being aren't I.
Keep your shocks and struts, buy the following:
MM front coil over kit for stock/koni/tokico w/o springs (MMCO-2) $259
My brand new 375# MM sourcedHypercoil springs (12x2.5x375#) $75 (half price)
MM Caster Camber plates (MMCC9994) $200
MM Bumpsteer kit (MMTR-4) $149
MM Forward Offset A-Arm w/ Poly bushing (MMFCA-10) $349 (soooo worth it)
MM Panhard Bar (MMPBA) $330 (weld it in)
MM Rear lower control arms (RLCA30) $330
With that setup you'll be pretty darned happy. You'll be able to step up to a torque arm later and all those parts will still be good, the only thing you'll have to upgrade to go full out is stiffer rear springs. The rear springs and shocks you have now are fine but you need RLCA's to help rid you of the wheel hop. Everything else is to keep the front doing what you want.
You can nix the bumpsteer kit, RLCAs and PHB to start if you want to step into it bit by bit. I've tossed in my front springs at 50% of retail cuz you'll never get them for half price otherwise and they're well matched to your rear spring rate. If you pick another spring/rate then add another 75 bucks to the cost of the springs... I only have the 1 new set of 375's and I'm not going to use them. The shocks and struts you have are fine but not perfect... Bilstein are perfect IMHO. Yours will do just fine and you won't bounce.
You can nix the A-Arms and use your stockers but you'll lose just a bit of handling and turn-in sharpness. Damn... I even gave you part numbers so you don't have to look em' up yourself. I'm a really great human being aren't I.
well it'll set me back a few pennys... but... everything i buy does... i never settle for anything less then top notch (or try not)
honestly... i do fine controllin the wheel hop... and i ain't racing... so if it will all work... and work good... i'm set...
my car will be a completely different car when she rolls out my garage...
all that suspension + cobra R hood + cobra bumper w/ abc excl lip + DD blk bullits = not what it was before
thanks... i think i covered all the suspension basics in less then 24hrs
#10
09-11-2006 | 11:35 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 9,865
From: Magrathea/California
no prob... it really comes down to a formula with sn95's.... they handle exceptionally well with certain mods and not a damn bit better till you go full bore.
Most of the things on my list up there can be bought and installed individually so you can piece it together and make it hurt your wallet less.. .the only things that must combine are teh front CO kit, and CC plates. After taht they're all one at a time things.
Enjoy. I can't tell people enough about how much I enjoy my full MM 3-link and coil over... it's soooo great.
Most of the things on my list up there can be bought and installed individually so you can piece it together and make it hurt your wallet less.. .the only things that must combine are teh front CO kit, and CC plates. After taht they're all one at a time things.
Enjoy. I can't tell people enough about how much I enjoy my full MM 3-link and coil over... it's soooo great.
#11
09-11-2006 | 11:40 AM
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Banned
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Posts: 4,135
From: JACKSON NJ
Originally Posted by r3dn3ck
no prob... it really comes down to a formula with sn95's.... they handle exceptionally well with certain mods and not a damn bit better till you go full bore.
Most of the things on my list up there can be bought and installed individually so you can piece it together and make it hurt your wallet less.. .the only things that must combine are teh front CO kit, and CC plates. After taht they're all one at a time things.
Enjoy. I can't tell people enough about how much I enjoy my full MM 3-link and coil over... it's soooo great.
Most of the things on my list up there can be bought and installed individually so you can piece it together and make it hurt your wallet less.. .the only things that must combine are teh front CO kit, and CC plates. After taht they're all one at a time things.
Enjoy. I can't tell people enough about how much I enjoy my full MM 3-link and coil over... it's soooo great.
i install it all myself...
do ya think subframe conectors will be a good idea? or sway bars? or do think either or both would throw somethig outa wack?
#12
09-11-2006 | 12:09 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 9,865
From: Magrathea/California
Install for all of them is bolt on... just that simple. The CC plates require you to drill a hole but nothing terribly complicated.
Subframes are a requirement of good handling. Get some as soon as you can. Stiffer sway bars are 50/50 option... if you take em you'll be a little looser than you might want, if you leave the stockers on you should be just fine but they can break under extreme loads.
I use stock sway bars for the street. If I need more, then I put it on for the event and go back to stock when done so it rides nicer. Neither the sways or the subs will toss anything out of whack for normal daily duty.
Remember, A-Arms after CO or at the same time but not before.
Subframes are a requirement of good handling. Get some as soon as you can. Stiffer sway bars are 50/50 option... if you take em you'll be a little looser than you might want, if you leave the stockers on you should be just fine but they can break under extreme loads.
I use stock sway bars for the street. If I need more, then I put it on for the event and go back to stock when done so it rides nicer. Neither the sways or the subs will toss anything out of whack for normal daily duty.
Remember, A-Arms after CO or at the same time but not before.
#13
09-11-2006 | 01:24 PM
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Banned
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From: JACKSON NJ
Originally Posted by r3dn3ck
Install for all of them is bolt on... just that simple. The CC plates require you to drill a hole but nothing terribly complicated.
Subframes are a requirement of good handling. Get some as soon as you can. Stiffer sway bars are 50/50 option... if you take em you'll be a little looser than you might want, if you leave the stockers on you should be just fine but they can break under extreme loads.
I use stock sway bars for the street. If I need more, then I put it on for the event and go back to stock when done so it rides nicer. Neither the sways or the subs will toss anything out of whack for normal daily duty.
Remember, A-Arms after CO or at the same time but not before.
Subframes are a requirement of good handling. Get some as soon as you can. Stiffer sway bars are 50/50 option... if you take em you'll be a little looser than you might want, if you leave the stockers on you should be just fine but they can break under extreme loads.
I use stock sway bars for the street. If I need more, then I put it on for the event and go back to stock when done so it rides nicer. Neither the sways or the subs will toss anything out of whack for normal daily duty.
Remember, A-Arms after CO or at the same time but not before.
then i don' need sway bars...i'll do subs further down road...i'm a good welder so thereisn'tmuch i can't handle...
thanks... you were BIGhelp
#15
11-07-2006 | 07:36 AM
Wowbagger hates me too!
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 9,865
From: Magrathea/California
I only like MM plates for coil over. NO 3 BOLT PLATES EVER on 94-04.
If your BBK plates are 4 bolt then they'll "do" but I still don't like anything but the MM plates. The steel bases and spherical bearings are super durable and very strong. I would replace them if I were in your shoes.
If your BBK plates are 4 bolt then they'll "do" but I still don't like anything but the MM plates. The steel bases and spherical bearings are super durable and very strong. I would replace them if I were in your shoes.
#16
11-07-2006 | 10:37 AM
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Banned
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From: JACKSON NJ
I only like MM plates for coil over. NO 3 BOLT PLATES EVER on 94-04.
If your BBK plates are 4 bolt then they'll "do" but I still don't like anything but the MM plates. The steel bases and spherical bearings are super durable and very strong. I would replace them if I were in your shoes.
If your BBK plates are 4 bolt then they'll "do" but I still don't like anything but the MM plates. The steel bases and spherical bearings are super durable and very strong. I would replace them if I were in your shoes.
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