Iraq had no link with Osama or his orginization. This was Bush finishing daddys war.

Now, back to the topic at hand. We will see troop pullout much faster than we originally thought. Why you might ask?

Because we just set the stage for a wonderful civil war in Iraq, and no leader is going to keep his troops in the country in the middle of a civil war. We cant take sides on it, and we cant do **** about it.

 

Wow, the ignorance in this thread is quite astounding. Lets get a few things straight here.

1) We had bad intel on the entire situation in Iraq. The guy we got our intel from was a liar, and this was found out much later on. Bombing and invading Afganistan, that made sense. I support that. However, Iraq was a quagmire waiting to happen. We have not found any trace of WMD's in Iraq post invasion, and we have not found any ties to the Islamist fundamentalist Jihad that everyone loves to site. Its not just Bush's fault, its the entire ADMINISTRATIONS fault.

Both Dems and Republicans jumped on the war bandwagon because of what was given to them at the time, and many of these representitives have looked at what they decided and found that the intel that they had gotten was false. Note how this war has changed in its reasoning. First it was "They have WMD's" and then it was "We need to free the Iraqi's." The mission was never accomplished because there was no set mission. The only real goal in this was to oust Saddam. Now, do I feel like the world is a safer place now that Saddam is out? Hell no. More countries have a bad perception of the US now because of this whole thing. If anything, we have created more enemies then friends.

2) Clinton, Kerry, and others did say that Saddam had WMD's. Im not going to refute this. Im also not going to refute the fact that Saddam HAD built WMD's and tested them out on his people. Mass genocide isnt cool in my book. However, I have seen no proof of any WMD's post invasion. Most people use the whole "They moved them out" excuse. Well, you tell me how they moved them out, since we have satelite photos from months prior to the invasion, and nothing was seen crossing the borders into any other country.

3) This war has cost us enough, both in Human life and in cash. Largest death toll since Vietnam for American troops and largest deficit for the country ever. We arent paying for this war. We basically asked other countries to fund it, and we would pay them back with interest. $2.2k. Thats how much each taxpayer has to pay to make up for the loss in this war. Thats $2.2k that I didnt ask to have removed from my wallet.

Now on to the President:

1) I didnt vote for him. I am an independant. I vote as I see fit. This man and his cabinet have been the source for many follies and scandals that he should be impeached over. The doubletalk and so forth has to stop. The latest thing with him lying in MULTIPLE interviews about the response to Katrina's levees is just astounding. Any President who lies to the cameras needs to be punished. Bush is still under our laws. He might not be under oath, but he has lied enough to the American people to warrant some kind of action.

His cabinet is useless. Rumsfeld is a joke. That man doesnt understand the whole point of his job, and his handling of the troops overseas and the prisons is just plain horrid. Torture is torture no matter how you cut it, whether there is a defined enemy or not. The Geneva convention still applies to the insurgents and the terrorists, even if they arent shown as "The Enemy!".

Bush's tax cut made no sense at all. Expain to me how a tax cut that benefits the rich people of America will stimulate economic growth? Also explain to me how those who are impoverished even make anything off of this cut. Going from a HUGE surplus to a HUGE deficit shows how inept his whole republican constituants are.

In laymans terms....how do you get out of a DEFICIT by GIVING people more money back who dont NEED the money?

2) 9/11 was a tragedy, dont get me wrong, and I think that Bush handled it as best as he could. However, I dont think that post-9/11 has made us any safer. For example, The department of Homeland security. What a joke. Im sorry, but I dont live my life based upon a color coded system. The day I see the color codes drop into blue or green is the day that everyones weapons suddenly stop working and we all join together for a group hug.

3) This administrations idea of the "Patriot Act" is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. Im not even going to get started in this one.

4) This man isnt going after foreign trade that is hurting our economy. Many have blamed the american auto industry for its own demise. However, this administration is partly to blame. Bush and his staff have not ONCE gone after the Japanese or Chinese for their illegal trade practices in manipulating currency and profits. The markets in Japan and China for their dollars and yen have not flexed in over 2 years. One thing would save the US Auto Industry, as well as US jobs, and its all summed up in a few words. NATIONAL HEALTHCARE FOR EVERYONE. We are the only industrialized nation that doesnt have this, and for this, our businesses suffer.

Theres lots of other stuff I dont like about the way this administration handles things, but this is just a few things. Either way, we wont see a war spread into Iran, even if the president of Iran doesnt like us and isnt cooperating. We are streched too thin on too many fronts already, and no senator is going to push a draft through for another needless war. At least this time we know that a country is actually PURSUING getting WMD's, and does have the capability to use them to great effect. Dropping the bomb on Iran, or any other country, would do nothing to stop this downward spiral in the middle east. On the contrary, it would make it speed up.

 

so you think Saddam should still be in power over there. wow thats just crazy. you dont think Saddam had any kind of connection with Osama? well im proud of our troops and what they are doing over there. i back them 110%. and Lance, i would go over there in a heartbeat if bush came up to me and said my counrty needed me overseas. i think everyone just needs to get back on the topic of cars. i hate when people say we shouldnt be over there or we are over there for nothing. cuz when you say that you are saying that our troops are dieing for nothing. ill gladly kick anyones a$$ that says that. im sure there are a few here that would have my back <cough> Greg <cough>

 

Point me to the document that says that Saddam had ties with the Taliban, and ill shut up.

Here's my proof. The 9/11 Comission!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Jun16.html

You tell me how the world is safer without Saddam in power. Really I would love to hear it. For me, I know that its quite the opposite.

 

i started to read this but once the bush bashing started i just stopped. cuz its just the same thing over and over. and you want to know how a tax cut to rich people helps stimulate economic growth? let me try to break it down to you. even my professor who is the biggest Lib ever thinks its a good idea. the rich play a big role in our economy. if we tax them less that means they will have more money to spend and help stimulate economic growth. if non rich people would get tax cuts they would most likely save their money and not spend any of it. thats kinda it in a nut shell. im not going to throw a big argument with you cuz i dont want to get banned so ill just leave it at that.

 

Holly Sh*t did you just say the world would be a better place if Saddam was still in power. i wish you could have been over there when he was in power ( before our BOYS took him the F out) and i would like to see how you would have like it over there. but WOW im still blown away that you think the world would be better if Saddam was still in power. its people like you that i have to ask my dad, why did you put your life on the line for them?

 

i hear ya man

 

ive asked our troops personally what its really like over there, cuz here all you hear on the news is all the bad things that are going on over there. they tell me that they are making real progress over there, and people walk up to them on the street and say thank you for what we are doing. thats all the documents that i need to hear. untill our troops tell me what we are doing over there is wrong, im backin this war 110% and backin our troops 150%.

 

You still have not answered my question, how is the world safer without Saddam in power? Where is this link that you seem to stress ever so much? I think that the United States standing would be better throughout the world if we did not invade Iraq, and I also think that the job should have been taken care of during DS1. I also dont believe that forcing democracy onto the Iraqi people is the way to handle things post-Baath party. This is the whole reason why a civil war is now brewing in Iraq, its because the Muslim community that was oppressed (Shiites) have the upper hand in the countries politics, and the ones that were in power (Sunni's) have hardly any say. They're going to get that power any way they can, even if it means attacking their own citizens.

I never supported this war from day 1, and if you would read my post, im not bashing Bush, im citing the entire ADMINISTRATION. Get your head out of your ***. And no, I dont ban people for opposing viewpoints.

Also, on the tax cut, no, it doesnt work. Its just like having the rich pay a flat tax. Its not the upper class that funds the country, its the middle class. Giving the upper class a tax break is pointless. Those people who are poor and are in poverty wouldnt be trying to save their money, they would be using it to buy what they need, food, clothing, supplies, etc.

What should have been done was to create another depression era type work force. Something that would CREATE jobs and help unemployment levels fall. This would give the poor and impoverished something to work for, and a steady paycheck.

Once again, if this country had a National Healthcare system, most of these problems would be resolved. I personally dont like the fact that many seniors have to consider choosing between food and their drugs. Its downright absurd. Corporations wouldnt have to be footing the bill to provide healthcare for their workers. This means that overhead costs are down for these corporations, which means goods dont cost as much. Sure, taxes might be a bit higher, but in return for a national healthcare system, I can live with that.

 

I am because im the one who funds his paycheck, and his administrations paycheck every month.

The whole point of America is to be a nation of free thinkers. You saying that your viewpoint is better than any other persons and using force and terror to cite the point makes you no better than the people we fought against in the 1700's.

Sorry, but if im funding an administrations paycheck, and I disagree with what they are doing, im going to make my voice heard. No way im just going to sit back and watch everything erode. I support our country and our troops, and I want them to come home, but I dont think that our President has been performing his job the way that the American people expected him to (hence why his approval ratings are WAY down).

Its us liberal ******** that keeps this country in check. I didnt support this war from day one, so you cant lump all of us into that boat.

Those Republicans and their laws that they put into place that they break (Campaign finance reform anyone? Lobbyists? Lying Under Oath?), how can I trust them? How can I trust an administration that enjoys hiding the truth from the American people? How can I trust a house and congress that seem to bicker back and forth and not get anything done?

And you wonder why the rest of the world thinks we are stuck up ******** who dont know what the hell we are talking about? "**** the rest of the world." Yeah, that will get some major brownie points from countries that we are trying to keep as allies.

 

What I love is how people with no history in politics or anything seem to know more than the president. I mean, the credentials it takes to be a president are insane. Min age of 35, must be american born, I dont remember the rest but a long history in politics is pretty much required and also you go thru rigorous testing and elections just to be in the running for pres(or atleast to be noticed while youre running) takes so much effort, knowledge, etc. The guy has a true desire for america's safety. i GUARANTEE you if Kerry was voted pres, and pulled out the troops from Iraq, and then the country got into chaos and tried to bomb the US, EVERYONE would be like "DAMN kerry, he shoulda continued what Bush did "


point is...there will not be any point in american history where everyone is happy. deal with it.

 

Explain to me how real progress is setting the stage for a bloody civil war that will continue for years? Explain to me how real progress doesnt have an exit strat? This was only supposed to be a low cost invasion. In and out. This has turned into an occupation. One year has turned into almost four years now. I see no signs of this ending anytime soon.

Im not one to say that good things arent happening over there, but I see more bad news come out of Iraq than good news, and I get my news from the BBC; not from NBC, Fox News, or any other news source that tend to be heavily biased. You cant put a positive spin on a conflict that has spun out of control and out of our hands.

 

you say you can live with the taxes bein higher, but you know what every1 else would be sayin "the taxes are too high". the main reason i back the war so much is cuz my family was affected big time by 9/11. 1 my dad was in the air in new york flyin for delta at the time. 2 my dad lost his job over it ( had to sell my s2000). so we had no income for 4 months. the air force calls my dad up and asked him to come back and fly. so he did. and dropped thousands of bombs overseas. and if the war is goin on still in 3 years when i get in, ill be finishin the bomb droppin my dad started. im not going to argue with you anymore on the whole my opinion is better then yours. but about the bush thing who here thinks that Gore or Kerry should be in office. Gore cant even win his own state. so shambles let get back to mustangs and things that go along with mustang tunning. Are you guys ever going to carry superchargers. lookin into to gettin one this summer. and since this is like the only mustang site im on, i thought i would go to you guys first before i dropped my money somewhere else

 

Nobody is going to be able to pull any troops out. We are too far entrenched and stuck in this conflict to go anywhere. There might have been a beginning of an exit strat, but nobody would be cutting and running, although with a Civil War looming, I wouldnt be suprised if some kind of rush exit strat was developed.

Remember, just because you have the credentials and the history doesnt mean that you are a perfect fit for the job.

The point is correct though, there isnt a point in american history where everyone is content with the decisions made for one reason or another. However, personally, I think this is one conflict that we could have done without.

 

People might be saying taxes are too high, but they wouldnt have to worry about their insurance company denying them coverage because of a stroke or a similar ailment. They wouldnt have to worry about not getting the medicine that they need to live from day to day.

I wouldnt have to worry about my health when I become older, because I know im covered under a system that is there to support me. Medicare isnt going to be there when I turn 65. That 2.2k that went to the war I would much rather see funding a national healthcare system.

 

I lOvE mUsTaNgS!

 

thats what i was thinkin

 

That's why this is America.Everyone can think what they want too.

 

Well daddy's war needed to be finished..

 

Maybe underground, I don't know. With all those tunnels and crap over there, I'm sure we have covered every single square inch of area where they could be hidden. If he built/tested/used in the past, he was more than capable of doing so again and on a larger scale.

 

Well I'm not going to pay for people doing stupid crap and getting sick, injured, etc. People smoke and know that is deadly. I shouldn't have to pay for people to carry around oxygen tanks because they made the choice to smoke. That is their problem. You must live with you're own decisions. Drug and alcohol abuse is rampant in this country and I should not be responsible for problems generated from one's own careless decisions.

Granted, those are worst case scenarios and that some people have legitimate illnesses by nature but that is why it would be difficult to instate a national healthcare system. It goes back to the whole tax issue. You don't think its fair for the middle class to fund the country, how is it fair some people's stupid decisions to be the burden on the rest of the country?

 

Holy hell, there is a lot of stuff here.

I fought in the first Desert Storm and ...welll, I am the only one on this board who has actually met and spoken to the President in person, so I guess that makes me:

"Someone who was in Desert Storm and who has met the President" - LOL

I am not gonna get all caught up in this thread, but I will say this:

#1 - Since 911 there is not been one single terrorist attack in the US.

#2 - Remember WWII? After Normandy and the Germans were kicked-out of France, over 40,000 French civilians were killed due to civil unrest and such during the next few months and years. 40,000! That is more then the total deaths during the invasion. So, I guess we should have just let Hitler keep Europe.

Do you know the difference between a Conservative and Liberal?

"Show me a 25 year old man who is NOT a Liberal and I will show you a man without a heart. Show me a 40 year old man who is NOT a Conservative and I will show you a man without a brain." - Winston Churchill

 

OOo Churchhilowned.

Good quote.

You're already funding money for people doing stupid crap and getting sick and injured (Medicare/Medicaid). What's the extra few hundred to get a healthcare system that isnt going to drop you and covers you for life? Taking out the HMO's and insurance companies for healthcare takes off a LOT of problems in getting affordable drugs and healthcare.

If everyone is paying out of their own taxes to fund the national healthcare system, then we all are paying about the same amount to be cared for for life, depending on if its a flat tax or something along those lines. Those people need care too, and its not like they get off scot-free not paying for their own care. They pay for it, just not through any insurance companies. That instead goes through the taxes on the 15th or your paycheck every two weeks.

 

actually, this is a good point. most likely, if there are WMDs in Iraq they are underground. in Egypt they have uncovered vast underground tunnel systems, in fact as big as an entire city, far beneath the surface of the earth. Iraq sits atop Babylon, or Sumeria, the origin of Homo Sapiens and our current advanced civilizations. Egypt gained all knowledge from the Sumerians, so it stands to reason that Sumeria (now Iraq) also has vast underground systems. which is why we found no WMDs.

 

I love it when a bunch of car guys start talkin politics. It makes for much amusement. All I'll say is that this should have happened over a decade ag owhen we had them running scared. I'm glad it's been done, I feel safer. Iran, yeah they need to have their dicks stomped in the dirt. Draft, I don't see it coming. Enlistment numbers are down because the military has been downsized on more than one ocassion since the first Gulf War. If we need more troops, they'll start getting more volunteers. We wouldn't be in a war with Iraq alone, Israel along with other middle east countries and most of the EU have already said they don't want Iran getting these weapons.

 

I don't think Shambles was trying to say that the world would be better with Suddam in power (the innocents of Iraq are much safer, at least greatful, now that he is out)... but, that we as americans were lied to by our government about the real reasons of why we invaded Iraq.

 

wait!... what!?! because 40,000 people died after we ousted Hitler you think we should've just left him alone? what! what about the f**king 5 million jews he executed? you gotta be freekin kidding me................

 

I am sorry, but that comment makes no sense. Do you REALLY think the government lied? No way!!! If this were the case, it is the worst lie ever in the history of mankind. Don't you think we could have easily planted WMD over there? Hell, if the government were interested in lying, that is exactly what they would have done. Why lie and then not cover your tracks? Nope...they told the truth...may have been wrong, but they told the truth.

 

Definately a possibility, which im sure has been looked into for quite a while now. I just dont think that if this was the case, why we didnt see it on the 24 hour Iraq sat imaging feed.

Well, I dont think that the government was being too upfront with this whole thing. The way that the spin was changed from WMD's are in Iraq to "liberate the Iraqi people" kinda suggests that the original reason wasnt an actual legit reason. Bush isnt so much to blame for all of this as Wolfowitz is, as he is the one, post 9/11, who kept egging the administration on to attack Iraq, even without enough evidence. I do agree, however, that we didnt plant any WMD's. That would just be plain retarded.

As far as the lie and not covering your tracks, this recent Katrina thing kinda says that our administration has a track record in lying to the face of the American people.

Im more upset over Rummy and his "Well if a civil war breaks out, its the security forces job to take care of the fighting." attitude. We're the reason why there is a climate over there to have a civil war break out, so we have a job to protect the Iraqi citizens from getting killed. We opened the box and its our job to take care of whatever comes out of it. Asking for $91 Billion more for the war, when we still dont have an exit strat (Rummy thinks that it will make the insurgents the victors, even though he could just say, we have one, but it is being kept under wraps for security issues) is just absurd.

 

possibly because it is underground (not trying to be sarcastic). but, still, i'm not on the side that agrees we went there looking for WMDs. that was just our excuse for validation.