Well summer here in Western NY has been pretty rough so far and I'm almost literally itching in anticipation at spring coming coming so I can uncover the car and drive it once again. I've been spending time lately thinking of how I can improve the car this year and one problem I had last year that scared the living **** out of me was the fact that I experienced (I believe) brake fade.

I'm almost positive what I experienced was indeed brake fade, but I just want to make sure. I live in East Bumfuck so my friends and I normally drive way out into the country to have our fun... I've measured a quarter of a mile out there as accurately as I can with a GPS and we like to make runs just for ***** and giggles. Accurate, no. But fun, hell yeah. Anyways, I made maybe three or four realistic runs before high-tailing it back into town before anyone got wind of what we were up to out there. On the way back my friends and I were cruising quite well along the roads. It's pretty damn curvy around here in spots so I was on the brakes quite hard. Before turning in for the night I pulled up to my friend in his Eclipse and we dug from a 20 roll and I stopped at about 110. I then proceeded to get on the brakes to slow down and turn around, but the pedal went all the way to the floor as I'm doing over a hundred. If that didn't scare the **** out of me, I don't know if anything will. I pressed on the brakes a second time, and they were there, but really weak. I finally got stopped, turned around, then tested my brakes and they were pretty fine. I figured I would have to be harder on the brakes to have fade but I guess not as I'm assuming my car has stock pads on it.

It wasn't such a problem then because I had another two miles of straight, level road, but what if that happened as a curve was coming up? Brake fade? If yes, I'd like to know what I can specifically do to thwart this happening this summer.

I am certainly looking for pads that dust as least as possible yet provide much greater grip as far as stopping power goes. From what I understand the more stopping power you get the more dust will follow... are ceramics different? I'm also aware I can change the fluid and go with different rotors or even upgrade the system to the Cobra package, but I'm not looking to go that far. My car is a daily driver and I like to drive my **** hard, that's for sure.

Ideas?

 

If the pedal went to the floor and you experienced no brake, then after a while you got some brake back, the problem is likely not the pads but rather the fluid. When brake fluid surpasses its boiling point it will compress and therefore not apply pressure to the pads. The fluid that boils is directly in the calipers. The easy, cheap, short-lasting fix is to bleed the calipers (this is normally done right afer you experience the fade, like at a track outing after a session). The better fix is to completely flush the brake fluid. I use Motul RBF 600, but it's $13 per bottle. Ford Motorcraft and Valvoline make good DOT3 fluid at aroud $3-4 dollars a bottle.

It is possible for the pads to overheat. Usually you'll see some glazing on the rotor or degradation of the pad. Complete brake power won't come back after that. You'll need to upgrade pad material. I use Hawk HPS on the street and HP+ on the track. I've got some Brembo sport pads that are supposed to be in the middle of those two. Hawk HPS pads are good on the street and for autocross from my experience. I don't notice any signifigant dust or noise. The HP+ pads dust like crazy and squeel like a pig when cold.

 

I haven't even touched the brake fluid in the car yet but I plan to flush all the fluids this spring time anyways so I truly know what's in my car and this will be one thing I focus on. I'll definitely look into upgrading the fluid. That's exactly what happened though... my pedal went to the floor then I slowly got it back after a few stops. Kind of surprised me though because it was probably about ten minutes since I was braking hard from 100+ out in the country and I didn't really experience any problems on the way to where I was, but then again, I wasn't on the brakes hard from such a speed.

I would also l like to look into some pads. I've heard such pads as the GS6, EBC Yellows/Greens and the Hawk HPS's. Would those two alone be enough for my rowdy street racing? I haven't taken the car to the track yet and I'm doubtful I will, but I *may* try it this year. I'm not looking for anything crazy, but I just want to be safe and especially after being in a few accidents, brakes are vital.

 

Brakes are mission critical. Whenever I'm at an event, my instructors always asks what I've done to the car. The first thing I tell them is how I've upgraded the brakes. Bigger rotors, larger calipers, fluid, pads, cooling ducts. That sets them at ease, lets them know I'm safety minded and won't run he and I into the wall. Because he didn't ask what I had done to the car just becuase he's a car enthusiast, he's asking because he doesn't want to find out I've got 600rwhp and tiny brake rotors on three year old fluid.

All thoes pads you listed would be good for pretty heavy street duty, but would fall a bit short with any signifigant open track driving. Using some good fluid and good pads, you should be set for the street.

 

first, I would change out the brake fluid. Even if you put in decent DOT-3, its amazing the difference it can make. Next I would be looking at your front brake lines to see what kinda shape they are in. If they look dry-rotted, or feel spongy, replace 'em, preferably with SS braided. From there I would consider upgrading to a Cobra-style big brake package. Instead of OEM style pads though, I would look at EBC's or Hawks.

 

for an upgrade, I'd look at EBC yellow pads, any GOOD rotor (powerslot, pro-stop, EBC, Baer, Brembo, etc...). The yellow's are a good street/track pad and they have good initial bite and solid fade resistance. For the best thing in fluid at a cost that's not ******* stupid, try ATE SuperBlue or Typ200 Racing brake fluid. It's got a really high dry boil but more importantly a super high wet boil which is the only one that matters.

I agree that you boiled your brake fluid and I've done it too... Hit the brakes and they work then all sudden like the nose comes back up and the pedal hits the floor. I'd look at a brake fluid upgrade, pad upgrade and if you don't already have a big brake kit, look into one. best money I ever spent was getting cobra brakes on my GT.

For more info on fluids: http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/acces...tail.jsp?ID=21 http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/acces...tail.jsp?ID=22

 

I can't even begin to describe how scared shitless that made me; I'm sure you guys know. I've been looking at my options red and to be honest I don't think I'll need something like the Cobra F/R big brake upgrade or the Brembo package. Seems a bit overkill for what I do on the street especially regarding the fact that I definitely need to be a lot more careful, conservative, and safe due to my driving record. That's the first time I've had a problem, and I would love to drop the money on a big brake upgrade for sure, but the stars just aren't aligning with me being in school and working part-time, plus I doubt I'll need THAT much beef.

I'm definitely going to swap out the fluid, that's not expensive at all. I'll also check the condition of the lines but I would also like to get a grippier stop along with not have any boiling fluid. My rotors are stock as per when I bought the car and since my last inspection they look to be in pretty good shape. The pads look not to bad also but I'm pretty sure they are also OEM and thus pretty much suck. Being in an accident in this car already, I'm all for being able to stop in a shorter distance. I could probably afford something like some EBC yellows and their 3GD rotors in the future but to be honest maybe not even this season as I'm still trying to pay off some other debts and I plan on getting new wheels and tires also.

No big deal as I'm just trying to get a feel for my options at this point, but I know a good first step be to replace the fluid. Where do I go from there? Replace the pads and rotors? Then maybe lines? From what I understand you'll be going to a big brake upgrade from there. Not looking for anything crazy but trying to remain safe for sure and with the **** I've done in my life I'll need the safety.

 

even just upgrading the pads helps. **** any single element will help.

BUT: there's NO substitute for the cobra upgrade. It's relatively cheap and will save your *** one day.

 

I definitely don't have the funds right now for a Cobra upgrade, so I think I'm just going to upgrade the pads and fluid. Do I need to replace/upgrade the rotors too while I'm at it if I go with EBC yellows up front and greens in the rear? Never really done any brake work at all...

 

I pretty much agree with everything said above. I think the single biggest upgrade you can do is the Cobra brake setup, my GT with the big brakes is unbelievably better than my old V6 was. I'm going to upgrade my pads and rotors soon too, can't even imagine what kind of gains that is going to yield.

 

And to be honest with my college budget and my driving style I don't see the Cobra upgrade as necessary. I like to have my fun but not THAT hard lol. I know they're mission critical but ****. My car still scares the **** out of me sometimes and it's stock.

 

I'm basically saying that I wouldn't spend a ton of $$ on the stock GT brakes. Get some better pads and replace the fluid.

Eventually when you've saved the money you'll be able to upgrade to some Cobra brakes and trust me, it will be worth it.

Keep an eye out @ SVTperformance, they pop up there from time to time and sometimes they sell pretty cheap.

 

If I go with the ceramic EBC pads do I have the replace the stock rotors though seeing I'm now working with different materials? I'm kind of gray on this area or can I just slap the new pads on? And do they have to be bedded-in?

 

If your stock rotors as still in good shape there should be no reason to change them.

You can "bed" them, but as far as I know that doesn't need to be done with ceramic pads like the metallics did.

 

Ah, alright. All I needed to know thanks guys.

 

EBC pads have a rotor conditioning (read abrasive as hell) top coat so for the most part, unless your rotors are warped or too thin already you should just be able to pop them on. I'd have your rotors turned anyway (kragen, 10 bucks each) so you can find out if they're too thin already or warped.

In your case though I think you're wasting a **** ton of money on expensive pads for crappy brakes. Grab some 20 dollar OEM replacement pads and have your rotors turned. When you've saved up 500 bucks, get a cobra front kit then when those pads wear out go with yellows in front and greens in the rear and you'll have all you'll ever need and never have wasted a dollar.

 

Alright red. Should I bother with a fluid change either since I boiled it in the past?

 

Every year. I like ATE Super Blue. Best fluid for the money and you can easily tell when you've purged the old stuff since it's a different color.

Brake fluid is hygroscopic. It draws water in which makes it less and less good at doing its job as time goes on. I change mine about once a year, on a cool non-humid day.

 

Can I use that ATE Super Blue stuff in my stock brake system? I was just skimming through my owner's manual the other night and it said not to go above DOT 3 or damage would result.

 

The only fluid you can't use is DOT 5 (might be 5.1) but it has silicon in it that will mess your system up. ATE Super blue is good stuff, like R3d said. They also have a gold version that you can alternate and be sure you get all the old fluid out. I use Motul RBF 600 due to its higher wet boiling point which is bettered by only Castrol SRF fluid ($70 bottle).

Edit: If you feel more comfortable using a DOT 3 fluid, that also doesn't cost a lot, use Castrol Synthetic or Ford fluid, you can find one or the other at any parts store and they are pretty good with a nearly 400* dry boiling point, around $5 per bottle.

 

Just asking what do you all use to bleed them? Do you have one person pump them or do ya use one of the do it your self jobbies that you can gt from harbor frieght. Just wondering if one method is better than the other.

 

I usually have someone pump the brakes, but I have speed bleeder valves on the front. Nothing wrong with a Motive bleeder though, just costs money.

 

I just want something that isn't so ******* dirty. My wheels end up black in a few days even if I try to be easy on the brakes.

 

that's pad compound. You want good stopping, you get high dusting. You want long pad life and less impressive stopping, you get less dusting. Deal with it.

 

But some pads dust less than others with similar frictions. I like Hawk HPS pads, I never notice dust from them. Hawk HP+ however will dust like crazy. The pads that were on my car when I got it were horrible. I couldn't drive down the street without getting noticable dust on the wheels.

 

HPS have always squealed on every car I've put them on. HATE them for that. They stop good and dust very little but the squealing is out of control so I refuse to use them or recommend them.

Some dust is "stickier" than other dust too. kevlar pad dust (EBC yellow) wipes off really easy but semi-metallic (and some ceramics) seem to magnetically glue their dust to the wheels.

The best combo of dusting, noise, bite, rotor wear and pad life I've ever gotten has been from EBC yellows in front and greens in rear. Greens dust a lot but the rears don't get used much so it ends up dusting at the same basic visible rate as the yellow fronts.

 

I've heard of a lot of people who have had problems with HPS pads squealing but I've seriously not once heard my HPS pads squeal. And thats with v6/GT brakes, Cobra brakes, several sets and installs. I guess I am lucky with them, or my ears just aint hearing that frequency. I put a good bit of spray-on anti-squeal on the back of the pads though, but mainly to keep them from sticking to the caliper for when I need to swap them out. HP+ pads squeal like a snot nosed chubby kid who isn't allowed candy at the store when there cold. I bought some Hawk HT-8/DTC-05 pads to use for a track day and I'm sure they will squeal and dust up a storm also.

But yeah, I've always read a lot of squeal complaints about the HPS pads but never experienced it.

 

I wish i had seen this thread before i bought my new hps pads..mine have squeeled a bit and it frustrates me because it was the main reason for me swapping them out.

 

After doing some racing and a few back to back 110-120mph down to 0 runs I went to use my brakes at 120 and they did nothing. It was scary as ****. I upgraded my lines to stainless, put in better pads, and swapped out all my fluid to DOT4 and have yet to have a problem since. I have gotten the rotors really hot and glowing up in the mountains of NC, but it held together fine for me. Best upgrade was the cheap pads (Under $100 shipped for all 4 corners) and changing the fluid out to DOT4. I use stock GT/V6 mustang brake setup as I drag race.

 

That's basically the exact thing that caused me to go to a cobra kit. After that I think things got out of control with it... it's a tooth chipper the way I have it now.

I did better pads and rotors on the GT kit and that was ok but I boiled the fluid and the nose lifted at a bad time and after that I knew I needed more heat dissipation. That was the day I decided to upgrade to the cobra kit. More mass = more heat capacity. I started with stock pads and rotors on the cobra kit and that was so good I went to Baer thick cheek 1 piece rotors and a progression of more and more aggressive pads. The EBC yellows that I run now are now aren't as hard biting initially as some others but they take a lot more heat before they fade, dust is mild and they don't gouge up my rotors.