Hey Folks!

I'm wondering if anyone could help me out here before I go back to Ford and have them rip apart my whole rear end of my V6. I own an 03 auto.

I've been hearing a clunking noise in the back end of the car on the passenger side. It is more pronounced after I go down the ramp to my apt's parking garage, and you can hear it when you put it into reverse into a spot. I recreated it a little going over bumps for my father's old mechanic.. but all he did was service the rear brakes.. which wasn't the issue of course.. but it was needed.

Now it was 50 times worst when I had my winter tires on in the spring then I brought it into Ford.. and they couldn't find anything.. but they didn't charge me anything either.. they heard the clunk twice with me in the car.. then it stopped.

Now it's back.. and it's driving me bananas. Now my front swear bar and rear lower control arm links were replaced in may of last year.. but that was the front suspension according to the work order.. now is there any way for me to try to find the issue without taking into the shop and loosing my car for another day or two and them finding nothing?

Damn thing is annoying.. if anyone can help out it would be appreciated for me to have ammo when going back in.

 

I used to get a clunk noise when i went over bumps from the back of my car. I replaced the shocks and its gone. My shocks were really messed up.

 

Now if I can only convince Ford of that rather than dipping into my car fund that's for my dual exhaust CAI and plug wires LOL.

 

My clunk sound in the rear turned out to be my Torque boxes. The upper controls arm I installed from hotchkis were too stiff (poly bushings too hard) and was flexing them. I replaced them with FRPP Uppers (rubber bushing 50% stiffer than stock) and now she's quiet with little lateral movement and no wheel hop. I left the lower arms w/poly bushings on.

 

Hmm I haven't installed any aftermarket suspension parts on my Stang yet, so could stock control arms be shot and Ford hasn't spotted it yet?

 

how many miles do you have?
did you buy it used?
is the rear suspension original?
When you brought it in last did they check out the rear shocks and rear linkages?
The more info you provide the better we can help, remember we cant see or hear your car.
Also, at dealership I used to work at, one of the techs had this headphone setup that had 3-4 long wire leads on it. He could put the various leads in different spots (they had clips on the end) and listen for noises while he drove that car around. Ask if they have any guys with something similar and if they don't, ask them if they know someone who does.

 

I'm betting torn bushing or loose bolt. Time for a little cardboard and concrete.

 

I Bought it used in '04.
and the front struts and rear shocks (aside from the front lower control arms) as far as I know hasn't been changed.
When they tested out the car last for the knocking, they took out
the carpeting and checked the top of the shock towers, and
bounced the car up and down when it was stable, and they couldn't find it.
I don't think it'll ever create it when it's stationary. So that requires movement, and since the original guy who heard it with me was the manager of the service department and he couldn't find it after stationary, I'm begining to wonder if there are dead spots inside the shocks themselves, but until it's a constant knock they can't diagnose it correctly.

 

LOL That's what my cousin says too, though since I haven't had time to wrench on this car myself, except for the stereo and alarm system, I honestly don't know where to see the bushing themselves, and that'll require jackstands (which I don't have).. and the tires off, I think.

 

I'm a bettin man too. And I agree with ThumpinStang. But I'm betting on upper control Arms (bad bushing, loose torque box bolt). on my car I was able to move the arm up and down (plenty of arm muscle).

 

Does anyone have a picture of where the upper control arms are located? I wish I could check by colour, but my whole car was undercoated, lol

(Was half asleep this morning.. I meant the uppers Sorry about that)

 

Sway bar connects to LCAs.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...7GGLR%26sa%3DN

 

Well I found a picture with the upper control arms installed off the differential housing, however, from the limited space under the car on the ground.. and the fact that my glasses keep smacking the underside of the gas tank, I couldn't move those arms.

I think I'm gonna have to take time and go up on a Lift again

 

The arms extend outward from each other (at an angle) from the diff housing. Should be able to spot them since they are close to the exhaust when they wrap over the axle and they are just pieces of c-channel, like the lowers.

 

i took my car in for that clunking sounds aswell and ford was like o well it sounds like a loose bolt. So i get my car back a week later and they said they went through the entire suspension and tightened all the bolts. Get it back sounded really nice no clunking no nothing. Went driving last night the clunking came back with a vengeance lol. What the F..... And i have tokico struts and shock and H&R SS springs. Hoping it isnt the shocks

 

think it could my sub bouncing around every once in awhile. I have the box drilled to the floor mat where that wood stuff is so it wouldnt slide around

 

Well I cured my clunking noise. It turned out to be the rear upper control arms. The poly bushings were binding making a loud clunking noise on real bad road or going up a steep driveway or ramp. I replaced them with FRRP uppers. Now I'm getting the lowers that are squeaking pretty bad, especially the right. I tired of this maintenance crap every month. Sometimes sooner. Made friends with a guy who's selling CHE products and convinced me on the CHE lower control arms with a Delrin sleeve in between the poly and bolt. Maintenance free, no squeak. I'm waiting for the part and if it turns out like he says, I'm buying the uppers which are adjustable without taking it apart. I got a good deal from it too. I'll keep everyone posted.

 

Below are the emails sent back and forth with Steve who sells the CHE Products. Steve had the same problems we have with Poly squeaking and binding issues. Until he found CHE. Now to provide us with same peace and quiet without having to go back to stock items. He sells them to people like you and I. Take your time reading each reponse and see how knowledgeable he is in reference to Stang Suspension. By The Way, Steve is willing to give you a discounted price for all who read this. Feel free to mention my name and this board.
Thanks Henry
Begin Here

Well, like I said just let me know how I can make it up to you. Don't let me
forget, cause that happens easy the older I get.

As for noise, there's no getting around it that the stiffer the bushing, the
more the NVH (noise, vibration, harshness). The squeak should be cured by a
switch to the CHE brand. Some people do notice an increase in the transfer
of road vibration. Myself, I couldn't tell a difference, but some do I
guess. The gain in performance is just huge though. And having an adjustable
pinion angle, like the uppers give, is important.

The stock rubber bushings have enough give in them to require the pinion
angle to be pointed down about 5-6 degrees from the factory, in order to
climb up to 0 degrees at WOT. With more HP, the rear tries to climb even
higher. Putting in Poly bushings cuts that need down to 2-3 degrees, to end
up at zero. So a switch to poly requires a reduction in initial pinion angle
setting of a couple degrees. With solid rod-end type bearings, that goes
down to about 1 - 1.5 degrees (but the harshness is horrible). Like
anything, a change to one thing requires a change to another to compensate.
Rear suspension is so cool... you can make a car go from a spinning pig to a
hooking monster with just a couple parts, if you just understand how the
parts work together. In my opinion, adjustable uppers, fixed lowers, and
adjustable shocks are a huge bang for the buck. For any drag racer, the rear
axle brace ought to be mandatory too. It's quite the piece of engineering
really.

I'll keep your order going then, and like I said let me know what I can do
to make it up to you.

Best regards,
Pontisteve




----- Original Message -----
From: <heap300@aol.com>
To: <pontisteve@earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: Your CHE Control Arm order


> Hi Pontisteve,
> Your offers are deeply appreciated. I will definately advise the forum
> first.
> Once the part is install, when we assemble and the guys don't hear the
> squeaks and a smile on my face. You know they'll be on your page. I'm
> Ricco02 on moddedmustang. They'll probably use that. My Club consist of
> guys in there 30's to 50's. Old Hot Rodders. The only time we race is on
> the Highway to clean it out . As far as the uppers, I removed the ones I
> had w/poly and placed FRPP uppers. I didn't like the noise it transferred
> from the drivetrain. Don't get me wrong the stability was awesome. Again,
> thanks for your offer. Put me in line with the rest of them. Your
> expertise has enlighten me and I will share with the rest (it'll also make
> me look like I know what I'm talking about). I'm a patient guy. Today my
> car wasn't as noisy. I hate that noise. Want my car to be quiet again. By
> the way do you have another web page?
> Henry
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pontisteve <pontisteve@earthlink.net>
> To: heap300@aol.com
> Sent: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 3:05 am
> Subject: Re: Your CHE Control Arm order
>
> Hi Henry,
>
> Thanks for understanding. Be sure to let me know which of the options you
> choose, so I can make it up to you.
>
> I can tell you that Chuck and the gang over at CHE do an awesome job of
> engineering and producing neat parts. They're always looking for
> innovative,
> creative new ways to solve performance problems. And by that, I don't mean
> having 3 chrome-plated tubes for a rear shock brace instead of the usual 1
> or 2. I mean real solutions, not just "automotive jewelry", otherwise
> known
> as rice.
>
> When I was looking for a method of bracing my 8.8 in my 11 second 97 GT, I
> had a good idea in my mind of what the design needed to look like. I
> didn't
> want to weld/fabricate one, because I knew that design would interfere
> with
> over-the-axle 3" exhaust. After looking for many months, one day I ran
> across this unknown little suspension company named CHE that had a (in my
> opinion) perfect designed bolt-on rear axle brace...
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MESE:IT&ih=002
>
> I bought it retail for my own car, and I was so impressed with the
> fitment,
> quality, and mostly the design of it, that I called up CHE and became a
> dealer for them. We've had a great relationship ever since, and I have
> more
> respect for their quality all the time. Few guys, in my opinion, really
> seem
> to care about actually making good stuff. To most, it's just a way of
> making
> money. With CHE, they seem to take great pride in having the best
> solutions.
> I like that.
>
> Since then, I have added many parts to the lineup of CHE stuff I carry,
> and
> recently I have become a distributor for them, so I now have access to all
> their stuff. By the way, tell your forum and car club buddies that if they
> want anything from CHE or me, to email me directly and ask for the forum
> price. I basically give them the already-lower Ebay price, plus an
> additional discount. Often times, that turns out to be whatever the Ebay
> sellers fees are, or free shipping, or something.
>
> Over the years, I have found that many polyurethane control arm bushings
> crap out prematurely. Some believe that it's their cars "awesome"
> horsepower, while others blame the manufacturer of the arm for building
> junk. The truth of the matter is that the real culprit is most likely the
> grease. And the manufacturer for not telling you about the grease. The
> grease needs to be synthetic, in order to not have a long-term breakdown
> of
> the polyurethane bushing. You see, the control arm rotates, and the
> mounting
> point bolt does not. Something has to give there, so either the bushing
> has
> to rotate in the control arm (which it does on most arms, necessitating
> the
> use of grease), or the bolt sleeve has to rotate in the bushing. With the
> CHE design, instead of using off-the-shelf Energy Suspension polyurethane
> bushings, they have the bushings custom made for them, and install a
> self-lubricating Delrin sleeve. Delrin is basically a really hard Nylon.
> It's fairly indestructible. The bolt sleeve can then rotate inside the
> Delrin, while the Delrin remains fixed and so does the polyurethane. This
> eliminates the need for grease, which eliminates the possibility of the
> bushing breaking down over time. At least that's the theory!
>
> So far, everybody that has used them seems to like them. I haven't had the
> first complaint of squeeking or of bushing damage. Be sure to let me know
> which of those options you choose, so I can make it up to you. And if you
> or
> your car club have any suspension questions, feel free to holler.
>
> Best regards,
> Pontisteve

 

Note: I'm not placing Steve's email to just sell he products. The email is to help you address your suspension issues. Steve is knowledgeable and offers ways to address these issues from his experience. Modded Mustang deleted my post above thinking I was selling. I wasn't, I wanted to share the knowledge. Steve may sell quality parts. But he will also steer you in the right direction if he doesn't carry what you need or supply you with simple home remedies for your stang. In other word " I trust him".
Below is Steve's reponse when I told him about Modded Mustang and helpful words on those noisy suspension.
Thanks Henry


Begin Here:
Yeah, sometimes forums get pretty cranky if a vendor appears in any way to be trying to sell his wares thru the regular forums. I suppose unchecked, you would have a hundred vendors answering every guys questions with a generic answer that says his product is the cure.

On the same token, it's almost annoying when you know you've got exactly what the guy wants, and can't tell him that due to forum rules. That's life I guess.

I was reading the post on mustangboards.com, and I've got a couple thoughts about the whole subject that I wanted to share. First off, really worn-out factory bushings can clunk, because basically there's nothing left of the bushing and some hardware bangs around in there. Most guys buy some aftermarket control arms at this point, since they have to do something anyway. But when they put in the greasable poly bushings, they find that they can squeek if you don't keep them lubed up often. Which makes a darn mess. Anyway, over a couple years, the grease breaks down the poly bushing, and they're back to square one. At least at that point, I guess they can just buy poly bushings, since most arms use generic Energy Suspension bushings.

As for clunks, short of the bushings being shot, they should probably look elsewhere for the real culprit. First I would closely inspect ALL of the bushings. Next, I would look for a cracked sway bar (sometimes Cobra rear sway bars crack near the ends). Then, I would ask myself if the car is lowered, and if so, is the factory pinion snubber hitting because the car is lowered. You could reduce the height of the pinion snubber, or just eliminate it entirely. I personally don't think it does a whole lot on most Mustangs anyway, unless you seriously bottom out the car on the suspension. Using many decent aftermarket suspension parts, this becomes less likely to occur in the first place.

I doubt shocks are ever a problem, unless the shock bushings go bad. This normally isn't a huge problem, but it could certainly be checked just in case. Internal shock problems are unlikely, in my opinion. Next, I would ask myself just how badly this car was beaten by the owner, and specifically drag launched with good traction, such as slicks. The factory torque boxes (the part of the floorpan where the control arms bolt to the body) are not designed for hard jolts, such as launching on slicks. As we stiffen up the control arms and bushings, and as we add slicks or sticky tires, we increase the jolt that is transmitted thru the control arms and into the floorpan (torque boxes). The upper boxes have basically just sheet metal with a bolt thru it that connects the control arms. The lower boxes have their front control arm mounting bolt go thru the frame, but only on one side of the bolt. The other side is supported just by sheet metal. If you could imagine a piece of 16 ga sheet metal, with a 3/8 hole drilled in it, and a bolt put thru that hole, that's pretty much all there is transferring the power and traction of the rear end into the body. That's weak. Given great traction, like slicks at the track, it is very easy to tear up these boxes real bad, or even just slightly wollow out the bolt hole. Now THAT could makes some serious clunking noises. The best fix, and I recommend it for any Mustang that's modified hardly at all, is to weld up the seams on the upper and lower torque boxes (pull the rear carpet and seats to do this!), and then weld in both an upper and lower torque box reinforcement kit, such as this one from UMI Performance...

http://umiperformance.com/1001?category_id=3

Notice the pictures in the bottom right corner of the page? They're of the install in my green 97 GT. :-)

As for clunking, I would also look real hard at the exhaust system, and the U-joints.

Best regards,
Pontisteve

 

As well, everyone should take some time and read up either in my sticky or on Maximum Motorsports site about why you shouldn't use Poly bushings in upper control arms normally ever.

 

I replaced my rear upper and lower control arms a few years ago but I've always noticed a clunking noise coming from the rear whenever I slow down to turn into a driveway. Sounds like a few things knocking around and usually it happens on uneven roads when i'm going real real slow and turning.

I have the Steeda aluminum upper and lower control arms found in the americanmuscle shop. Any ideas on when that sound could be?? I don't think I changed my bushings, unless the new control arms came with bushings to install.

Also,
I just changed my steering bushings to some teflon bushings. Hows the stats on those, I poly and delrin but I havent sen anyone rocking any teflon bushings, are they okay to use?

 

Replacing My lowers with CHE lowers not only cured my squeeks and binding noises. I realized that the clunking noise disappeared too. When I took a look at the old lower arms (only less than a year). The poly bushing fell off when i was inspecting one side. It looks like when I was driving either on uneven roads or driving up a steep drive way, the bushing were binding and was causing premature wear. I was able to spin the bushing inside and noticed wear on the end of the bolt sleeve. Even though it felt tight, it was still moving around when I was driving. The bolts had wear on the threads indicating it was banging around (hence, the clunking noise). The only way you can tell is by taking it apart and inspecting the bolt and hole. Man, that noise too was pissing me off. Until I met Steve and told me about delrin sleeve in between the poly bushing and the bolt sleeve. It looks like CHE doesn't even hold the patent on this idea. CHE had to wait for this guy that Steve had mentioned to me, that makes the custom bushing, inserts the delrin sleeve and bolt sleeve into a stack of awesome looking control arms from CHE. This Delrin piece is like indestructable, self-lubricated (no more friggen greasing) piece of plastic made by Dupont.

Below is email the Steve sent me when I had them installed.

Henry,

That's great news. Sounds like you're on your way. I have yet to have one single complaint get back to me about the CHE control arms, and particularly about them squeeking. Your detractors need to check into Delrin a bit. It's neat stuff. Hard as a rock, yet basically a plastic or nylon type material, that's easy to form. And most importantly, self-lubricating. It's made by DuPont, and I guess they spent $50 million developing it. Google "Delrin self lubricating".

http://www2.dupont.com/Automotive/en...cs/delrin.html

So tell your friend it's a $50 million dollar piece of nylon. For that much cash, it ought to be good at something! In many racing applications, they use solid Delrin as a replacement for a rubber bushing. That's pretty stiff for a street/strip car, and polyurethane became a bit better of an idea for street applications. The CHE design uses the Delrin solely for it's self-lubricating purposes, as a bearing of sorts, and uses polyurethane for the bulk of the shock absorption. That combination is the best of both worlds. I have great hopes for it's long term increasing popularity and success. I remember in the old days of 70-81 GM F-body cars, it was pretty popular to use solid Delrin bushings to replace the rubber leaf spring bushings in hot street cars.

If you can come to the understanding that it takes care of the lubrication part, then everything else makes sense. And since it's got a very long life, and is low-friction, it should extend the life of the whole bushing assembly. And Delrin doesn't need to break in either. It's the same from beginning to end. Poly bushings with grease starts out as an ok deal, but the grease dries out and becomes sticky, and over time it will help to break down the bushing, especially if it's not synthetic grease (such as that supplied by Energy Suspension to be used to install the bushings). Not to mention that makes a huge mess. I hate working with grease. Make a deal with your buddies not to do any maintenance on the control arms for a year, and see who's hating life in a couple months, LOL.

On a positive note, I just opened my Ebay Store. The lower cost of listing parts for longer periods of time has allowed me to list a lot more parts, that are less likely to sell as often. For example, I just added 83-88 T-bird control arms. A great find for those guys, since they've been left out in the cold over time due to their rarity in the racing circles. Before, they just didn't sell often enough to warrant carrying. But now, with a lower cost of listing them, I have added them to the lineup along with a slew of other parts. The best news being that I'm now able to add packages of parts that before were sold separately. For example, I have the 79-04 Mustang adjustable uppers, and the lower control arms together for $275 shipped. Even better for the S197 crowd, I've added the adjustable upper and fixed lowers combo for just $254.95 shipped. In the short time that I've added these combo deals, I've had a lot of buyers so I guess that appeals to folks. It's also a bit easier to buy just one time instead of twice I guess, on top of being cheaper. I'll probably expand those package deals in the near future, to include axle braces and maybe even a grand package with panhard bars as well. CHE makes so many cool things for the 05's, and I can't wait to bring them to the masses.

You should definitely get the upper adjustable control arm next. Having just one upper arm really puts a lot of load on that one piece, so you should see a nice improvement with installing it. Give some serious thought to the lower control arm anti-squat brackets too. I believe they will help traction nicely, especially in a stick shift car to keep it from spinning on the shifts.

Did you say $180 to install them??? HOLY COW! Its four bolts man! If a cop gave me a violation for working on my car, I would probably use it as Charmin.

Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Heap300@aol.com
To: pontisteve@earthlink.net
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 10:41 PM
Subject: Lower Control Arms


Steve, So far it's been beautiful. No noise. It feels great to cruise around now. All thanks to you. Of course you got those who think it's still breaking in. Another guy tells me " No grease fitting! Impossible. You'll regret it". Even after I let them see it. They said "no way, not a piece of nylon". Well I'm about to prove them wrong. I feel positive about this. I'm already thinking about the uppers. Just have to build up my play money (thinking about some other parts). Had to pay 180.00 to install them. It sucks have no garage. Cops up here give violations for working on street. Totally blows.
Regards
Henry

I'm loving life now.

 

Henry just loves reposting my emails I guess! LOL

I'm going to play devils advocate here for a minute, and address an issue from the other side of the coin. A poster above politely mentioned it, and he's right (in a perfect world anyway). By putting in any type of Poly bushing in the control arms, we are stiffening them up. In forward-to-backward directions, that's a very good thing. In side-to-side, it actually is not so hot. It can cause binding in the rear suspension, particularly when the suspension is in an odd position. For example, turning right into a driveway that goes up a steep hill. Or in racing, on certain turns with weird angles. This binding can not only put a whoopin on the bushings themselves, it can also cause some incorrect suspension geometry on the fly. Replacing the entire rear suspension bushings with control arms that have spherical rod ends would be the real cure, and would allow full suspension articulation without binding.

The thing to remember here is that everything you do is a tradeoff in racing. Sure, the rod ends would be perfect for racing, and even for street manners such as the driveway example. The problem is that they'll rattle your teeth out if you use them in a daily driver. Plus, the rod ends aren't really designed for daily use, so I doubt they would hold up as long as a bushing would. While the poly bushing could have it's handling drawbacks, it's much more friendly for street use, and you still get most of the positive effects of the rod-end type suspension. The tradeoff there is that the bushings are going to need to be replaced once in a while. Particularly if you live in a very hilly area, like the mountains. For those that remain undecided about the choice between rod-ends and poly bushings, consider what Ford did. They used a rubber bushing that allowed slightly more side to side movement, but sacrificed wheel hop and straight line traction to do it. They also picked up longevity.

I believe that having the poly bushings actually greatly helps handling, despite what some people would have you believe. The stiffer bushing keeps the control arm (and therefore the rear end) more solidly located in regards to side-to-side movement. The bushings really only become a problem when you have those weird geometrys, such as the axle tilted greatly at the same time as the car remains level (the driveway example). Most of us, when zipping around corners, are not putting the rear end in a weird situation anyway. And if we are, we're probably not going fast while doing it. In the end, it's all a compromise. The poly/delrin bushing in the control arms I sell seems to be the best overall compromise to me. Plus, the bushings are fairly inexpensive to replace (about $26 a pair), and are readily available. I sell the rod-end control arms too, and for all-out racing I think they're the hot ticket for sure. The point is, I have no dog in this hunt. I'm just trying to give everyone both sides of the story so they can decide what the right compromise is for themselves.

Oh, and the CHE arms have poly bushings with a Delrin sleeve, not Teflon. Delrin is a very hard, self-lubricating Nylon. Teflon is more for lubricating, less for being hard. The QA1 rod ends have teflon in between the spherical bearing and it's shell, for lubrication purposes. Using the Poly/Delrin bushings is a way to have your poly bushings without having to continually grease them. And by not greasing them, you're keeping them from breaking down faster. This should keep the bushing alive longer.

 

I have solid delrin bushings in my a-arms, rod ends on my PHB, high durometer poly in the front of my torque arm, poly bushed & aluminum sleeved sphericals on the front of the LCA and rod ends on the rear of the LCA. Short of a MM spherical upper shock mount I run possibly the stiffest combination of bushings you can get. Hell, they're entirely metal in back and hard-*** delrin in front. Notice that there's an assortment of bushing options employed... hell pretty much all of them.

My car is kinda loud over small bumps and I can definitely tell what the softer bushings were absorbing now that no bushings are absorbing anything. It's not too much for a street car but it's close and if you put too much spring in the car it'll beat you to death. Whatever you do make sure you get a balance in flexibility where it's needed and rigidity where it's needed. You can always call up MM and ask them what bushing options you should look at for your use case. They're very helpful.