Thing is with those cams, a little work on the heads as you mentioned, the bullitt intake, and that much boost, that can easily be made on a 4.6.

I bet you'll make closer to 500.

HP wise wont the 5.4 and 4.6 be very similar, just the 5.4 will add much more tourque.

Personally if I ever did a 5.4L swap I would keep it N/A because thats where the gains will be much larger than a N/A 4.6

What I mean is that a blower on a 4.6 with heads/cams will not be that much different than a 5.4 with heads blower, IMO

 

yea i know the 4.6 is capable of the same #'s but a centrifigul 5.4 vs. 4.6 will produce more TQ at a lower rpm...which is what i am after....TORQUE =FUN!!!!

plus i want to be different with the 5.4, plus i am at the limit of my 4.6 with my current combo...305hp/320tq NA...420hp/540tq on a 125 shot
i have a cobra crank but factory '00 rods and pistons...i couldnt wait and save the money i guess

and the centri blower on the 5.4 w/lower tq that it will provide...will help take care of (or atleast keep up with) 3 03-04 cobra's that make between 620-640hp/575-600tq....1 whipple, 1 bell, 1 whipple and a 50shot made 680hp/710tq....

 

J/c, but how can you and is there a twin screw, such as the KB, for the 5.4L. I know theres the one for the lightning but that brings the CAI on the driver side of the engine.

Is is safe?? to use a 1.7 or 2.2 KB on RR adapter plates with a 5.4?

 

the lightning bell would work but you would have hood problems....and as far as a 4.6 bell w/plates....why not

 

Can a 4.6 N2O setup easily be used for a 5.4? Since their modular and you can basily use everything in theory it should be fine, but just wondering!

 

Nitrous can be used with anything really

 

To answer a lot of questions... Keep in mind that with the 4.6 intake on a set of plates you can use any nitrous system for 4.6's on the 5.4. The whole idea of using the 4.6 intake is to make it friendly to guys that don't want to have to mod every mod they buy just to make it work.

The idea with the new manifolds, and the reason I pushed so hard for them, is for guys like me who are willing to do the mods to our aftermarket parts to make them work with 4.6 and 5.4 goodies as appropriate.

Cams: You guys will want to call up Comp cams and ask about a more custom grind. Using cams designed for a square bore application doesn't get the most power from the long stroke of the 5.4. A good size bias toward the intake side will bump HP quite a bit. Torque will probably stay pretty high as well.

A 5.4 will get more HP from a given amount of boost than a 4.6. Pressurizing the intake to 8psi means that each cylinder is maintained at just a bit below that (depending on cams and other details). More air + more cubes = more hp. Simple math. The torque with supercharged 5.4's is obscene...like diff grenading obscene.

With well ported heads, good blower cams, and 14psi through most any intake, you should expect to see 450-500hp on a good tune on the low end. 550-600 on the high end. Doing that means you have to use good forged rods or you'll have a swiss block at some inopportune moment. Those numbers assume a blower friendly 8.5:1 CR. Add compression and pull some boost and you'll bump the hp #'s.

 

right on r3dn3ck...i cant wait
5.4 2V+14#'s of pressure from a D1SC+ a 50 shot of that special blend of NX sauce=a bad day at the office for ALOT of unsuspecting people...

now thats a math problem i can relate too!!!!!!! :banana:

 

BTW... Pushing big boost in a 5.4L 2V has been known to cause sparkplugs to simulate a shuttle launch right out of the head.. Kinda the risk you take. If you do launch one, you can heli-coil it and it'll be good and strong or you can just pop off the head and replace it with another. PI heads are so cheap lately that keeping an extra set around isn't too bizarre a proposition. Keep a couple COP modules as well.. since that'll probably be removed or at least dissected a bit in the ensuing chaos after the plug goes bye-bye. That's not to say you can't go well over 14psi and not pop a plug but it's a matter to keep in mind that there's only like 6 or so threads holding plugs in on PI heads. You might be the unlucky guy that has one pull out. I've known Lightnings to go 16-20lbs of boost and not shoot one through the hood. I also know someone to did pop one at 10-12lbs.

Adding a 150 shot to 14psi and a really solid build would be... an event. Take some video of your speedometer when that shot hits. I wanna see it pass 150.

 

Hello All,

newbie here,

I've got 150,000 mile GT that'll someday be in need of a refreshed engine...you've got me thinking that it'd be just about as easy to get a much more plentiful 5.4l and swap it as just getting another 4.6l...


(and I wanted to subcribe so I wouldn't "miss-place" this thread :shifty: )

 

150K... better grab yourself a block. Anyway welcome. Hope you find all the info you need.

 

[QUOTE=r3dn3ck]Don't think you want to ask that...

BTW... I just got off the phone with hi-performance solutions. He's making a lot of progress on the 5.4 version of their Hardball'r intake. It's VERY promising and has a HUGE plenum and 10"-ish runners instead of 13-15" runners so we'll keep as much tq as possible and gain hp. i'm sending him my spare 5.4 Expedition intake today so he can do some fitment work. (just to be nice).


I've been thinking alot lately about what I can do next to my 4.6, so I don't get beat by these new cars with more HP. I've got all the normal bolt ons and such, but was going to start saving for the Kenny Bell. Now after reading all 150+ comments here, I think the 5.4 is the way to go. I know that I am mechanically challenged, and this might be a stupid question, but will the new 5.4 3V's be an option or is it as bad as the 4V swap? Now I remember a comment about the tranny bolting up, but will my stock 02' 5spd bolt right up? One last question, will the 5.4 need to be built up first or will there be increases with just swapping out? I've always been pretty much a lurcker, but this seems way to interesting to pass up. With people like redneck helping us all out!

 

hey it's still runnin' like a Swiss watch :banana: (knock wood) and I got a 125k out of the stock clutch disc too (ah, life in southern California 500 miles a week on the freeway)

anyway, thanks for the welcome and I've found all kinds of useful info already...I was leaning toward just modifying the harness and doing a DOHC swap, but the cost v. value seems a lot better with a 5.4 swap

 

[QUOTE=SuperSonicGT]
I'll try and help out a little bit.
As far as the 3v's I would be pretty sure it would be just as tough as the 4v. Still need new heads/cams/intake, basically the entire engine, and the headers, etc.

I would do a 5.4 4v before a 5.4 3v. IMO

The big gain with 5.4 is that it's simply larger displacement which means slightly more HP and a lot more TQ.
I'm not too familiar with the F series 5.4 blocks, but I know with the Lightning supercharged truck, that 5.4 has forged rods and pistons and I believe a cast crank. I've never found how much that block can take but I would venture to guess 500 would be about it's limit (500 HP in engine).

If you're looking to add any type of power adder to the 5.4 block, I would personally just build it right away.

If I ever built a 5.4 I would get the bare block and then get a reputable 5.4 rotating assembly and build my own. Can be done for a tad over 2K.

And yea.... why not strap on a Kenne Bell to a 5.4 now thatttt would be crazy tourque.

 

That's what I am working on now. Just saving my pennies for the forged internals.

 

ok.. only got a minute so I'll make it quick.

5.4 3V would be nearly impossible for the average guy. Wiring harness is totally new, car is totally new, no intakes exist that will work, eeeeek... so many problems. Maybe in a year or so when the 3V upgrade kits come out (just a guess).

The stock GT tranny will work for a while but you're going to munch the 5speeds eventually. THey wear out and we're adding a lot more power to the pot. Eventually they'll need some rebuilding. Since we're not going much farther than a common blower car power-wise, it shouldn't be a problem of any magnitude.

All 5.4 blocks are the same basically (except aluminum GT blocks). The 5.4 block is known to be good to go to well over 650hp and 800 isn't unthinkable. The modular blocks are wildly strong for their size.

My comment to look for a block to mransr is real. After a while it'll end up oval by a bit. Overboring is ok to a point but nobody seems to like going more than 20-30 over.

SupersonicGT, don't lose sight of the fact that this is a MAJOR modification to the vehicle and has a few ramifications that need to be considered in the long term. Fuel supply if you want any big power from it, exhaust is not commodity, smog may be an issue in picky states (unless you're covert), rear ends should eventually be beefed up as well as trannies and clutches.

Please for the love of god don't do this until you have cobra brakes or better. More power, more weight, more right foot = more need for more braking power. That's not a functional requirement it's a safety thing.

Peece out...gotta clean the garage.

 

This is an interesting thread. I applaud all of your efforts in trying something different. Personally I see no reason to mess with a n/a 5.4 2v of any type. Plain and simple even ported the heads don't support enough airflow to warrant the time and expense. You will be slower than a well built 4.6 2v n/a since they can spin faster. If I did build a 5.4 it would have to be a 3v or 4v. If you want a fast streetable modular car build a forged GT 4.6 and put a KB 2.2 on it or just build a 03 Cobra motor with a KB2.4 or twin turbo set up. If you want a fast n/a mod motor build up a Navigator 4v. By the way I am not an engine guru I get my info from Boss 330 himself and his 560 rwhp 4v n/a motor based off a Ford GT 5.4 block and heads. Al is one of the most knowledgable mod motor builders on earth and a pretty straight shooter on these matters. We had this discussion last fall at the NMRA world finals on Saturday night at our BBQ and keg party. I am not trying to rain on any of your parades and I hope your projects turn out great. Just offering an opinion based off discussions with professional engine builders and racers.

 

wouldn't the ability to add a lightning blower very cheap be enough reason for the average joe. Not into drag racing really, just want to stomp camaros as cheap as possible?

 

A lightning set up in a Mustang would be torque city. I bet you could not keep tires on the thing. For a Mustang I would prefer to just stay with the 4.6and slap on a kenne Bell since I am lazy and don't want to custom fabricate stuff. But for those of you who have more time on your hands it would be a fun project. I think hood clearance becomes an issue with the 5.4 swap but assume you could fab up some custom motor mounts to help lower the block a little or just get a cowl hood.

 

The lightning blower complicates matters to no end. There are wiring and MAJOR hood clearance issues with that track that make it less than desireable to totally unthinkable for most of the guys this is targeted at. Not that it's not a killer idea but... just not practical for most of us.

Frightning (MMFF's Lightning powered Fox) is surely a neato thing to look at or even seriously contemplate but, for most of us, a top mounted blower just isn't in the cards (too many issues to deal with at the hood and too much $$). Centrifugals would be pretty easy and would fit under the hood nicely and you can see well over 500lbs of tq and 400hp from a moderate build but that's a personal choice. I'll slap a blower on after a while but I'll run mid 12's without one.

Blue02 thank you for being polite and making a case that we can debate calmly. Here's my argument, feel free to rebut it:

As stated six or eight times before, we're well aware of the maximum power capacity of the PI heads. However, you're not correct on 4.6 vs 5.4 rpm spin up times in any real sense. The 5.4 is basically a 4.6 with a big stroker kit in it (actually deck height makes the difference). They're the same bloody motor for all intents and purposes. A little extra mass in the rotating assembly doesn't leave you at a significant disadvantage when you add as much power as we're adding. The added weight of the 5.4 block is minimal but a small real concern... which is totally displaced by the extra power. Go rent a 5.4L F150 and tell me how slowly you build RPM when you gun it in neutral. Then start your 2v 4.6 and gun it in neutral. Time the amount of time it takes to go from 800-5200rpm in each. If you have more than a 10% discrepancy, I'll eat my words right here. no cheating. Remember, if that were the case, no amount of extra valves per cylinder would make Al's car run 9's because he's be waiting for his RPM's to catch up. The way it works is acceleration. If you have more power per bang then you'll be able to accelerate the rotating assembly to X RPM and carry the weight of the car faster.

You put any 4.6 2v with it's max of what... 320lbs tq NA up against a car with 370+ lbs of tq and the same or more hp and you'll get a stomped 2v 4.6. Under load the engine with more available power at the wheels per pound of vehicle weight will be faster, that's physics. Will a 4V be faster... yeah a helluva lot. Will it be harder to do... damn right. Will any 5.4 beat the snot out of any equallly built 4.6 with the same number of valves, any day of the week. Ask Al...

If you read the whole thread, or even just skim it, you'll see a lot of technical information about blower selection, the fact that this WHOLE swap is possible for under 2500 bucks (KB blower, 6K+, 03 cobra swap 10K, navigator swap 5-8k, centri blower 4k), demonstrated power numbers, etc... All these things are factors in our decision to make this particular swap. It's stupid easy, wicked cheap and makes a 30% gain in available tq which will translate to much shorter 60' times if you can keep the tires stuck to the ground.

You said yourself you're using second hand information and you don't actually know. Conjecture is not appropriate here but we love questions. This is a forum to show how to put a 5.4 2V in your mustang, fit it under the hood, do it to look smog legal, and get people together, not to say how much a different mod would get you over this one or to pour out your second hand opinion.

FWIW, Papito's 5.4 has a 4 thousand dollar BLOCK, plus 3500 bucks worth of heads, major porting work, and a rotating assembly most of us can only dream of and him to build it. Your average papito motor is 8grand or better plus integration costs.

 

Blue02, I have an article you might want to read. It's full of info on how to do the swap, considerations and dyno charts, pictures and all kinds of neat stuff. If you PM me your email address, I'd be more than happy to forward it to you.

Everyone else is welcome to the same article. 5.0 & SF did the article series about 2 years ago in case you're curious.

 

I have read all the articles and I think it would be cool to build a blown 5.4 2v but as I have stated I lack the determination to do so. My comments were directed more towards original direction of this thread which has changed a great deal since it's inception. As to the articles the 5.4 n/a car made less power than a 4.6 due to the crummy intake . Yes it made more torque but frankly my bolt on 2v would have smoked the mag's car. Those engines are designed to make power low for large vehicle applications and require alot of changes for racing. It's a neat idea but seems like alot of work to go mid 12's. Frankly I'm only a set of cams from mid 12's right now with my 2v. I guess I just don't see the point in all that work for the same power you'd get from a engine that already fits and has all the wiring and plumbing located. And yes Al's engine was expensive to build but it's a thing of beauty. As to spinning the motor faster I was referring to stock motors, dropping a stock 5.4 2v into a mustang and you will peak much lower than a stock 2v and you will be slower despite the torque advantage. That is why they never followed up on those articles you had a lot of work for a slower car. Some day when inexpensive conversion parts are available for this application it will be a viable alternative but right now this is not a good project for a neophite to tackle. I enjoyed reading this thread and all the thought that has gone into it. Most of the racers I hang around with just skip the 5.4 and swap in a 4.6 4v. you guys are breaking new ground and some day this may be the hot set up. But I doubt it due to Ford Racing selling the GT block I think you will see bored and stroked 4v's making serious power n/a and the 2v will be a thing of the past. 3v and 4v heads are the future of Ford racing.

 

nice rebuttal. Well done. We'll have to agree to disagree on the performance until we get more evidence from the drag strip. Who knows you may be right on average...doubt it but never can tell.

FWIW, I'm on the phone with Comp Cams right now sorting out a spec that will work for the majority of us. I'll be spec'ing smog legal and hot street cams but I'm not going to bother with race only cams since you should do that yourself based on the kind of racing you do.

 

Ok... comp cams says that their off the shelf XE grinds are just what we're looking for. For the money, can't go too wrong.

They've spec'd the XE268AH for PI heads with 3.27-3.55 gears (you don't want much more gear than that) and XE270 or 274's for 3.73's and up. I don't know how you'd stick the tires with that much torque coming in so early with any more than a 3.55 gear but I'm not you so you make up your minds.

I figured if I get the recommendation for you guys you won't alll call up comp and ask the same question.

Is there any interest in a group purchase for some XE series cams for our cars for the guys that are doing the swap? If there's enough, I'll try to set it up. Comp may not be the vendor we end up with but we'll find a good source that will give the specs we want at the price we want.

 

Im in it to take my slow 2v non-PI headed POS up a notch. I can get a 5.4 for the price of the PI swap kit and this I think will be well worth it to me to swap in a 5.4. Ill probably have a easier time to stick the power to the ground in my boat compared to the stangs

 

You most definitely need the torque for the Town Car.

 

so technically if i just wanted to buy the bare block, EVERYTHING will interchange or just bolt up? i will obviously get new internals but everything else will work fine?

 

you cant just buy a bare block and call it done, you will need the front cover as well but after that it will all swap accessories that is...

 

I just want to throw it in with the 5.4 Intake. Is there anything that doesnt work with the stock 5.4 intake? Also my car has the single coil packs. Do mustangs have that, Or is it easy to cross over to wires?

 

the cam chains are different too. No matter what a little custom grinding and fabbing will be required. It's a near bolt in... not quite total yet.

SicOne... the 5.4 intake is wicked tall. No cowl that's street legal will cover it. Your single coil packs aren't a big worry if you use a PI mustang intake and a set of adapter plates or one of the new intakes that are due to hit market in the coming months. pre-99 mustangs had the same setup, also pre 99 5.4's came with them FWIR.