Now I'm not a big hippie or anything, infact I'm going into OSU's (Ohio State) Army ROTC program and becoming an officer in the military. I just think there are many other ways of preventing this particular situation, and that's why I'm picking on Bush. WWII was unpreventable from our stand point. We joined mainly because we were attacked at Pearly Harbor, similar to 9/11 attacks, but Hitler was also killing millions of Jews, Gypseys, Homosexuals, etc. You can't stand for that. That war I can stand behind. I always support out troops no matter what, but I don't always support the administration and it's doings.

I have to put this in, I dont participate in many political internet discussions, but here is something to chew on if you are an anti bush supporter/Kerry supporter.


Bush came into the presidency and into what I would consider the WORST presidency to come into. The man didnt get well moved into the white house before some assholes decided to catapult 2 747's into some of the tallest buildings in NYC, a plane into the pentagon, and hijack another that crash landed. Now, I have to ask, what would have Gore, or even Kerry done if presented? Im willing to bet that NO ONE would have any better rating as a president at this point in their presidency had it been anyone else. God knows we would be so far into a pile of crap had the other two actually won. Think about it. I have to admit, Im tired of soldiers dying over what turned out to be nothing, but God knows SOMETHING had to be done about Iraq, whether it was Bush or someone else. It doesnt help that Iraq KNEW we were coming months in advance and had AMPLE time to get rid of anything that could incriminate them, but we wont go there. Too much speculation. It makes me sick to see people that ride around with their anti-bush bumper stickers when IMO, what the hell else could he do. We live in a world where EVERYONE thinks someone owes them something. We have illegal immigrants wanting full citizenship, who are also draining our economy and natural disasters that are (in my opinion) doing the inevitable. But yet, it all seems to be Bush's fault, like he could actually DO something. Our Nation has become too liberal to get ANYTHING done, for God sakes, we cant even have "Christmas" parties without someone filing a discrimination lawsuit. Well, Im rambling about pointless stuff now, so Im done, but I just have to ask the anti-bush people, who the hell COULD have done anything with the hand of cards Bush has been dealt. I would love to see it come out any better...

couldnt have said it better myself man. and you also forgot Hurricane Katrina was Bush's fault also. i cant stand all that BS. nice post!

:beerchug:

That was the natural disaster part. LOL re read it.

Wow.... awesome Matt, I 100% agree, Couldn't have said it better:beerchug: :beerchug:

Just call it like I see it. :shrug:

I hear the same things from all of the soldiers I talk to, Do you ever watch the military channel? You guys cant believe everything you hear on CNN and Gay MTV news, most news stations are bias and will only tell you half the truth

i wish i got the military channel, ive been seeing some commercials for it on the descovery channel. looks awesome. but ya right when someone tells me that they heard something on the news, im just like shut the fu*k up you dumba$$.

I'm completely for the war in Afghanistan, but the attacks on the twin towers had nothing to do with Iraq. Iraq and Sadaam have never been linked to Osama, and it seems now that the search for Osama has stopped. I fully supported the war in Afghanistan, however short it was. I still don't see any legitimate justification for the war in Iraq.


As for the immigration issue, I'm all for the new bill or issue or whatever it is that is going through. I don't think it's fair at all that illegal immigrants can live in the U.S. and reap its benefits, and they don't have to learn English or work nearly as hard to EARN their citizenship such as the legal immigrants. I have nothing against foreigners at all, I just don't respect any immigrant that doesn't go through the proper steps to become a citizen.

Who says I'm getting my info just from news channels? I've got a friend that graduated 2 years ago and just got back from a 9 month tour (USMC). I've also got a cousin that is in the USAF but he doesn't have much contact with the locals because he does intel.

I never said the war was from the attacks. I was merely using it as proof that GW got a clusterf*ck dropped on him the minute he stepped into the office. IMO, the war was for the WMD's, which it was originally, but when you give a country months in advance warning to get the **** out, do you think they are just going to leave it there for us to find?

Jesus christ how old are you, 17?

I've said time and time again, I don't support the war, but I do support my troops and wish that they are brought back safely. What isnt going through your skull? Just beacuse you don't support a war, doesnt mean you support the other side, nor does it mean that you dont support the troops that are overseas fighting the war. **** i've got family members who are in the armed services, you don't think I keep them out of my thoughts?

I pay my respects to all veterans and soldiers alike, fallen and in combat. Why do you have this image of me running around burning an American flag and shaming every US soldier that comes back?

Yes, there is good news that comes out of Iraq of soldiers being thanked by the Iraqi people, and yes, this news is often times left out of the daily front headlines. But, from my eyes, I see more bad than good that has come out of this invasion. A more politically unstable middle east with the possibility of civil war breaking out at any time, a strained political presence throughout the world, a very large national deficit, etc etc.

Once again, read what I am typing instead of just assuming my opinion. At no point did I say that we are blowing away any civilian that we feel like, but recent events say that there are a few more trigger-happy marines that arent following the ROE. A group of Marines taking down two dozen Iraqi civilians is not acceptable in my eyes.

Here is my source by the way:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5028830.stm

In all honesty, you need to realize how blindly you are following your train of thought here. Not once, that I have seen, have you actually read what any of what I have typed and actually thought about what my opinions are here. I read the news, I read between the headlines, and I frankly don't like the fact that we are in a quagmire that we can't get out of. It's time to start outlining a plan for withdrawl. Get the Iraqi police and military trained and ready to defend their country, and then start pulling out. I personally believe enough American blood has been shed for a war that has not achieved what it has claimed.

Hence why I get my news from the BBC, not from a US News Agency.

Hardly anyone would be able to come out on top with the deck of cards that Bush was given. Then again, I think that its not all Bush to blame. The problems between parties in the house and Senate, as well as the seemingly incompetent Republican Congress have also put out some problems.

It is true, the US has gone a bit crazy on stupid lawsuits (Christmas, one nation under god, etc) and for that I believe that those Liberals should be locked in a cage and beaten with a spikey bat. On the flip side, I am also not too pleased with the Church who goes around and says that 9/11 came around because of the homosexuals in America, as well as the conservative religious right pinning everything down as being a fault for feminists, gays, etc etc.

As far as the speculation, there was an Iraqi general who wrote a book who says he saw orders to move the weapons into Syria. How this was done without US Intel knowing, I have no clue, but it is possible.

Katrina just showed that the current administration isnt too well organized for a major disaster of any kind, not that anyone could be 100%. Once again, after hearing Bush say that he was never briefed, and then turning around and finding out there was a video of Bush being briefed about the hurricane puts a major bullet in the foot of the Bush administration. I mean come on, why was the head of FEMA a previous horse show organizer? How does that make you qualified for that job?

Like I said in an earlier post, nobody knows what Kerry or Gore or any other person would have done if they were in office. Thats all speculation, and I think that if you are a leader then your decisions are manufactured when you are placed into the position. Thinking about it post-occurance doesnt really do anything, as you already know what NOT to do.

No, but I don't see why he gave them a warning. It's been proven that Sadaam commited acts of genocide, testing weapons on his own people. Why would Bush give him time to hide/dispose of his weapons? Cops don't call up drug dealers a week before a raid and let them know it's coming.

I do agree with you that Bush got "cluster-****ed". I still think he could've handled it in a better way. We could've sent SpecOps into the country to run intel on Sadaam and his top players, then decide whether war was inevitable.

im 21 dude. and you say that what we are doing over there is wrong. in other words you think that we are over there for no reason. so when our soldiers get killed to you they die for no reason. you've said time and time again that what we are doing over there is wrong, so dont try to back out of that one. dude i hope your like 12 because your best comeback was "Jesus christ how old are you, 17" my cousin is 13 and he has better comebacks then that. so like i said in the last post i gave to you, im done talking to you.

I think that the justification of the war is an invalid justification and is not why we went to invade Iraq in the first place.

Nowhere in any of my posts did I say that our soldiers die for no reason. They are over there doing their job, which is what their commander in chief has instructed them to do. They are over there attempting to stabilize a situation that is almost impossible to stabilize. Their current mission is to minimize civilian casualities and to train an Army and police force so that control can be fully transferred to the Iraqi's and the US military can take less of a role in Iraq.

Once again, read what I am typing:

I don't think what we are doing over there (which is attempting to stabilize a country in utter turmoil) is wrong. I believe that the initial situation in Iraq as to why we invaded, and the subsequent change and manipulation of the American people, is wrong. Many times a course of action is necessary, and in my eyes I did not see Iraq as a necessary choice. Afganistan, yes. Iraq, no.

Quit trying to put words in my mouth. Not once have I ever said that what we are doing over there is wrong. I have said, however, that the reason why we went over there, was blindsided and not looked into completely, and that the subsequent invasion was unjustified.

whatever dude. now you just said that you think what we're doing over there not wrong, but your against the war. hmmmmmm

ok

#1 come on, how long has this war been going on? 2+ years? 3000 people is nothing, i dont want to make there deaths seems like no big deal, but for that long of a war effort that isnt that bad. thats like the anual deths from bee stings. . . sure 3000 deaths is ****ty, expecually when it is our soldgers, but how manny people die from drunk driving? or cigarettes yearly? a hell of a lot more then 3000. So stop the bitching.

2# I hate it when people say "i support our troops, but not the war" thats BS, you dont support the troops, you support the removal of our troops. When people say it its like there trying to cover there ass about being anti-war. The troops are over there fighting there ass off for a reason you do not believe in, then you do not support the troops.

You really are trying to put words in his mouth. The first sentence he has there is that the justification of the war is BS, but the fact that we are helping the Iraqi people support themselves so we can get out is good.

#1 - Why compare these deaths to something else? I'm not going to go shoot 5 people and say, "O well, atleast I didn't kill as many people as Jeffery Dahmer." I don't think the judge would let me got because I didn't kill as many as Dahmer did. This gives no justification of the deaths. I'll bet you anything that if you father and brother were killed in this war that you wouldn't be saying, "Well, 3,000 isn't so bad for 2 years."

#2 - The fact that we don't support the war doesn't mean we don't support our troops. We have absolutely no power to bring them back here, so we support them over there; hoping that some day they will come back alive and well. Just because the troops are over there fighting their ass of for a reason we don't like doesn't mean we don't support them. I'll bet my life that not every single one of those soldiers over there for infantry agree with the war, but guess what? They still put their life on the line every single day because they agreed to do exactly what the C-I-C says, no questions asked. So I don't want to hear anymore bull**** about how we don't support them because we don't support this bull**** war.

READ MY LIPS:

I don't think what we are doing over there (which is attempting to stabilize a country in utter turmoil) is wrong. I believe that the initial situation in Iraq as to why we invaded, and the subsequent change and manipulation of the American people, is wrong. Many times a course of action is necessary, and in my eyes I did not see Iraq as a necessary choice. Afganistan, yes. Iraq, no.

I really hope none of you guys are involved with Michael Crook and his bullsh*t, then I'd have to take away your Mustangs and de-idiot them. :)

Anyway, I'm not one for talking political bs over the internet, or in real life. As most people have their side, and usually are hard to break from their point of view, I know I have my view, and a couple of formally typed paragraphs on an internet forum certainately isn't going to change my opinion. All I'm willing to say is that I partially support the war in Iraq, and fully support the operations in A-stan. The reason I only partially support the war in Iraq is because, Iraq isn't doing anything to help us help them. That country is as corrupt as one gets and realy just needs to start over. We are doing a good thing over there, if some soldiers kill a few Iraqi civilians, so what? Who are we, that have never been in combat, to judge a soldier over there with constant stress, physical and emotional drain. There's a 99% chance that none of you guys know anything about what is REALLY going on over there, I know I don't. Maybe if you are a soldier and have been on tour in Iraq, and actually were in the combat and security stages of it, then yes, your opinion should be worthwhile. but the rest of us really do not hold a worth while opinion. Judging something without experiencing it isn't exactly a smart thing to do, but we all do it anyway whether we like it or not, it's natural.

All I can say is that I support our troops 99.999% for what they are doing, 1 out of everything 100,000 may be bad, how often do you see on our news, something positive about a soldier's action in Iraq? I rarely see it, how often do you see something negative about the soldiers in Iraq? My point exactly. The news likes to tell you how many of our soldiers died every day, do they say out of how many? Do they say how many insurgents our soldiers have terminated or captured each day? Do they say how many yards of ground we have gained in a city each day?

Chances are, you never hear the positive in the media, just the negative.

If you want something positive, ask a soldier, don't watch the news.
here's something positive for a change:
https://mustangboards.com/attachment...g?d=1148599152

I haven't decided if I want to join the military or not, it's not because of the whole "I don't want to die" sh*t that teenagers pull out their ass, that is not what the military is about. Only ignorant fools think that every career position iin the military involves a gun and blood. If I were to join the military, that's where I would want to be, personally, because that's where I know I could make the biggest difference. No matter what I do in the future I will always support our soldiers, the guys with the reversed American flags on their right shoulders are my heroes, don't ever, EVER, lay the blame on them for a decision a few politicians sitting at a desk made.

Doesn't matter to me the "initial purpose" of our "invasion" of Iraq, all that matters to me is that a tyrant - Suddam Hussein, has been removed from power. Pro war or Anti war, you have to understand how much of a monster this person was, and taking him out was something that had to be done, just so happened the US was finally the one that decided to step up and do it.

But as I said in the beginning of my post, this stuff won't change your mind, you'll probably forget everything that everyone has said in this thread within the next 10 minutes. Which is why topics like this are useless, they have no effect on other people. All it does is give people that love to argue a chance to speak their mind and showoff how much BS they know.

A few months ago, I was in the habit of compiling some tribute videos for our troops, here are a few of them if you want to download and watch them:
http://files.filefront.com/Beginning.../fileinfo.html
http://files.filefront.com/Salute_Hi.../fileinfo.html
http://files.filefront.com/USA_Highw.../fileinfo.html
http://files.filefront.com/USHeroesw.../fileinfo.html
http://files.filefront.com/Iraqi_Fre.../fileinfo.html

im tired of reading your lips dude

sorry dude i must have missed that part. ive been reading so much BS on here, i must have just skimmed over it. my bad. all in all, it was a great post!

I like president Bush. IMO he did the best he could with what he had. Let's not forget that someone had to feed him the intel. I know we can't change the past and we can't predict the future but lets just say that tomorrow we find a ****pile of WMD in Iraq. Does that make it all better? Will that make Bush look like he knew what he was doing? Maybe. But at the end of the day we still have thousands of troops in harms way that need our support.

This thread was about BUSH, good/bad/whatever. You want to know what I like about him? Why I believe he did a good job? Because I don't see any fighting here, on our soil. The attacks we sustained could have been just the begining to the pain we could have felt here. Once again, we can't change the past or predict the future. He took the fight to "them". Does anyone remember the "axis of evil" speach?

I am proud to say I was a part of this war. I went over to fight, not for oil or for any political BS, but because Mr. Bush sent me. I will go back too when it is my turn, no matter who is in office. I fight there so we don't have to here.

thanks for your service man. and are you a f-16 driver, or do you just like the viper

It would actually be an F-16 Pilot, and by viper, I think you mean Falcon? :D

But as you said, Thanks for your service bro.

are u fuggin kiddin me. alot of US pilots call ourselves drivers. like my dads license plate reads B1 DRVR (for B1 Driver). its a play on words. and if you dont know the name for the f-16 is viper then you shouldnt be talking to me right now. ask any f-16 pilot if he drives the Viper, they'll know exactly what your talking about. noone calls the 16 a falcon (unless your gay) everyone knows it as the Viper. Steve-O i hope you drive the Viper so you can educate this guy on the Viper. and if he dosent, listen to these guys songs. they are two Viper pilots. http://www.myspace.com/dosgringosrocks

That's interesting, never knew they'd call it the Viper.. pretty stupid since the Viper is a girly car. ;)

but anywho, yo said "ourselves" are you a pilot? If not, please change that word, poser! j/k.

i am a pilot, and i would take a viper anyday, both the f-16 and the dodge

Thanks. I am not a pilot though, I am a crew chief on the F-16. I started on the F-15 but when I got off active duty and went to the guard the base I went to had the 16. Oh....and as for the viper thing, the 16 is the falcon. The vid of the pilots that say they are vipor pilots or whatever, they are probably refering to their squadron.

All Saddam had to do in order to avoid this entire thing was COOPERATE WITH THE ****IN WEAPON INSPECTORS.

He did not do this. America got tired of the UN backing down to saddam and put out an ultimatem.
Saddam STILL did not work with the weapons inspectors.

If he would have cooperated he wouls still have his ****ty little country.

And Bush is a piece of **** in my mind and i cant wait for him to be gone. Yes, he was very decisive in his action about 9/11,. props, that was one of the few things he did right.
this guy all he wants to do is line his own pockets and the pockets of his friends. he doesent give 2 ****s about american citizens, thier jobs, the economy, the debt, any of that.

In my view he is about as lousy of a president as there is. And i dont wanna hear anything about me not being patriotic.

Patriotic means you believe in the ideals of your conuntry, and support what the country stands for.

Instantly agreeing with a ****ing chimp in a cheap suit who is reading a teleprompter as his friends make his decisions is not a requirement for patriotism.

:devil2:

Done with this thread. lol.....

ok, let me do a little educating. does anyone know who made the "Viper"? Lockheed Martin. and yes the OFFICIAL air force name for the 16 in the Fighting Falcon. but that name wasnt given to it right when it was made. all the pilots called it the Viper, and when the air force named it the Fighting Falcon all the pilots kept calling it the Viper. they said the name Fighting Falcon was too gay for the 16. and no steve-o its not their squadron. if you listen in their songs it say something along this line, "if you drive the Viper" and things along that line. steve-o if you ever get the chance ask a guy who flies the 16 about the Viper. im 99.9% sure he'll know about it. just go on yahoo or something and type in f-16 viper, you wont get a squadron. heres a place i go to http://www.f16viper.org/

o and by the way steve-o, ive been thinking about what im going to do if i get a choice in the f-15 or the f-16. i like the f-16, its like my favorite plane, but the f-15 is sweet also. and also the 15's are crossing over to the f-22. which one do you like better?

What are you talking about, Bush is always the smartest guy in the room and we should follow him wherever he wants to take us and believe everything that he says! ha ha ha ha.....Just like jack azz Al Gore invented the internet! Yeah right!

F-14 dominated all of them.

now i cant agree with you 100% on that, but i do agree that its a bada$$ plane. it just sucks that they're not trainning anymore students on it. their slowly going to get fazed out (which blows big time)

If you are looking at being a pilot I really can't help you there but from the mechanic side I would say the 16 is more maintenance friendly but if you are taller than 5'1" then the 15 is the way to go. It is more of a maintenance pig but IMO you can't beat the 15. If I had my choice I would pick the 15. I was on the F-15E and that is fairly new. I can't see the F-22 phasing out the F-15 anytime soon. England just got some new (2002's I think) E models so if they are still building them I can't see them going away anytime soon.

What is your plans? pilot....maintenance.....what? Just curious.

Well TOPGUN already got rid of it several months ago, and I think all of them are almost gone.

Pilot. My dads a pilot. my bro just got a pilot slot, hes going to UPT in Pensacola on the 12th of this month. but ya i think your right about the 15 being around for awhile. i think it will take awhile to get all the 22's in. but if i had my choice with the 15 i would want to fly the "slick" or the one seater. but then again the E is the newest also it would be a little more fun with a nav in the back seat ( Maverick and Goose style, lol). but ya im definitely going for a pilot slot out of ROTC