the jews have been around longer:poke:

Yeah but every other intelligence agency in the ****ing word said that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction... and at least Bush took the brunt of it and apologized over national TV for it not being correct. It was a statement he made to the nation, like what, three-four months ago?

Like Clinton was any better dude.

Political Party: Republican
Religion: Baptist

:stupid:

Republican, but more then that, conservative.

I support almost everything that the republicans exept i am not christan, i have actually been called anti-chritian.

i am pro-abortain, and i dont give a crap about gays, who cares if they can marry, to me marriage is just a stamp that says you can file taxes together

I support bush, and i am all for lower taxes, lets keep our own money kthx

I love it when ignorant liberals paste Reagan for spending money. Hey dumb idiots, presidents don't spend money, congress does! For 40 years the dems ran Congress and all during that time they spent, spent, spent. Now that we have that civics lesson straight, remember Jimmy Carter? Worst inflation in the history of the country.

Whether Bush is a good president or not will not be known for another 20 - 40 years. Oh, and by the way, while I hate to say this, there is not been another terrorist attack in the US since 911. I wonder why?

Also, it is truth that Bill Clinton had more wire taps then Bush did. You just did not hear about it.

well said

:stupid:

Sorry if I got a bit robust in my reply. People are entittled to their own opinions, just be sure you understand how things work.

Life is a complex thing. Politics is no different. We live in the greatest country in the world where people can formulate their own opinions.

If you don't like it here, then try to change it or move.

Yea in a church, of course gays should be able to be married under any christian god, but the thought of marriage in the US takes on two meanings, there is the "holy matrimony" and the, well now we file tax's together and share names.

As far as the USA goes, a LEGAL marraige (non christian etc) can be done with some little paperwork and a notery.

So the law shouldnt care who gets married to who, gay or otherwise, however a church can care, and should.

But honestly, why do the christians care if gays file taxes together? for god sakes live and let live.

Dont let them do it in churches if you want, but christainity does not and should not have any bearing beyond that.

Hey, let the gays file taxes together that way they will pay more. Ever heard of the marriage penalty? You pay more if you are married and both working then if you are not married in many circumstances.

i dont really have much to say but i dont like politics....period...

im not really religious...but i dont have a problem w/ religion....if my g/f parents ask me to go to church w/ them...ill go...i dont have any problem w/ going and respecting their wishes...i know people who are EXTREMELY religious...and it has basically taken over their life...EVERYTHING by the bible....

abortion:
against it if couple agrees to have sex...they take the risk of concieving
for it if a young girl is raped...being raped ruins the girls life

GAYS:
if its the life they choose..then so be it...i dont think the government should be able to control the lives of any person...

and please ...dont ragg on me cause of my views...i dont usually let many know about my views for its personal..but u guys are family to me...so im sharing w/ family :clap:


on a side note























MUSTANGS FOR LIFE!!:punk: :pepper: :clap:

Wait wait wait! Okay, I'll grant you that presidents don't "spend" our money but they do hype up their economic programs and influence how money is spent by Congress. Trickle down economics obviously trickled nowhere. Oh! and if we want to get into Congress spending the money, this Republican dominated Congress seems to like to waste our tax dollars on Pork Barrel spending (ie the Bridge to nowhere in Alaska). Back on the topic of presidental influence, Bush's tax cuts for the rich program is only going to cause problems down the road because we are going to have to make up this deficit at some point. I just heard the argument about not bringing up the deficit because there has been and always will be one. Well the bigger the deficit gets, the less value the dollar has on the global market. Right now England is 2 TIMES the value of the dollar (a beer was like $10)! The Euro, in its short time, has already surpassed the dollar and other countries are itching pretty close. PLUS presidents DO get to veto economic bills, so they may not necessarily get to "spend" the money, but the get discretion over how and where it will be spent. And you point out Carter as the person who had the worst inflation during his term but you might as well have named Clinton for the biggest economic boom in the history of the country.

Regarding taxes: I am a proponent of keeping my money too, BUT I don't get to because I don't fit the brackets. Here is the stupid thing. If you give people in the lower and middle classes larger tax breaks, they are going to buy things and stimulate the economy. They are going to invest more because they have the resources to do so. Example: the small refund I managed to get (only because I was able to get a school credit) went straight to MT! By giving the tax breaks to the rich, Bush's argument is that they will reinvest that money. The problem is that they don't and they simply amass wealth. But they aren't giving bigger tax breaks to the lower income level earners because they really don't care.

Next point, terror attacks: It isn't logical to say you would rather have had one candidate or another be president at the time of something like 9/11 because you don't really know how the other person would have handled the situation. You forget, Kerry actually has seen combat. The only enemy lines Bush has ever seen are Columbian, white, and you can snort them through a pipe. If we had another Cuban Missle Crisis I would damn well hope Bush isn't in office. And if I recall, wasn't Bush's reaction to just sit there when he found out about the attacks? Anyways, to say that there has not been another attack on the US is to say that they were more frequent in the past. There have not been a great number of terror attacks on the US fortunately but it isn't as if Bush and his administration have come in and completely stopped terrorism. All they have done is made the public scared and invented a color system (secretly a gay pride flag) that seems permanently stuck on yellow (or maybe orange if you watch Fox News).

And here I was trying to go to bed early! :sleeping:

Quick side note...I am prety sure it isn't a choice. Would you really "choose" to be gay? It isn't like a rebellion against women! (Or in the case of lesbians, men)!

So this might be for another thread...but when y'all are watching porn and see two girls and a guy weasling...do you automatically turn it off because in the eyes of the lord (and society) it's "wrong"?

If someone weren't a little gay, then how would a ménage à trois work! :banana: :pepper: :banana:

I know, I know :offtopic: BUT! It is food for thought and has something to do with religion (and maybe politics if you are Clinton or JFK)! One thing is for sure, dems love to get some of that sneezle weasling going on! Glad to be part of that group!

Ok, so far I like the way that this thread has worked out. Looks like people are having semi-intelligent discussion, for once.

Now, as for me. I am a Moderate, probably leaning a bit more towards being a Democrat than a Republican.

As far as my views on what has come up:

The war in Iraq is a war that should not have been entered from the beginning. There was no evidence of WMD's, and im not too happy that the subject matter of the war suddenly changed from "OMG Saddam has WMD's" (which he had been known to have) to "Hey, we're bringing democracy to Iraq." I for one would have been pleased with the government going out and photoshopping a picture of a nuke strapped onto an ice cream truck for justification of the war. There were no ties with Al Qaeda and Saddam, and this has been proven multiple times over. Saddam even thought that Bin Laden was a maniac and did not agree with his practices or methods. Now was Saddam cooperative with inspections? No. But then again, those inspections were less of a deterrant than anything else.

To make this clear: Do I believe Saddam was a douchebag? Yes. Can I justify 3000+ Dead US Troops and Thousands of Iraqi citizens dead as acceptable to overthrow a government that had nothing to do with the attack on US soil? No, I can't. And I don't exactly see anyone who can justify this.

The war in Iraq wasn't brought up just randomly as a dinner-table discussion. That was brought up a during 9/11 by Paul Wolfowitz. Originally Bush didnt even want to touch Iraq (Read Clark's book about this).

I for one support our troops for being over there when they shouldnt be and hope that they return home safely. I am with Rep. John Murtha in the fact that I believe that there needs to be a structured pullout, and it needs to start happening now. Remember the whole "The war will take only three weeks." Where are we now, three years if im not mistaken?

Just a quick thought here, how can we, as a country, be bringing DEMOCRACY to Iraq, when only 30% of Americans actually participate in the democratic process?! That seems a little backwards to me.

The war on terror was a war that was setup to go after our attackers, who were in the mountains of Afganistan, not in the oil fields in Iraq. If anything, we as a country have created a more unstable environment now post invasion than prior to the invasion. Iran is VERY unstable and has almost a Nazi-like demeanor on progress and so forth. Our troops are in more danger now than ever if Iran goes Nuclear, which it probably already is. We can't engage in a war on two fronts with the troops that we have in place right now.

Just because you are against a war, doesnt mean that you are for the other side. If someone was walking around saying "GO IRAQ, YOU ****ERS." then by all means kick their ass.

As far as immigration goes, I believe that we do have a wide open policy for immigration, but things need to change in order to bring fairness and equality as far as base pay goes. Minimum wage is a joke, and I cant blame these people in working for under the table pay. After taxes, they wouldnt even be able to support any family, much less themselves.

I think that anyone who decides to immigrate to the US should do three very important things.
1) Citizenship test and become a full fledged citizen.
2) Learn the English Language (The national language is not, contrary to popular belief Spanish)
3) Pay Taxes.

Who said that this country is always in a defecit? That's total bull****.

Last time I checked this country was in a multi-billion dollar SURPLUS when Bush took office. Anyone know where the hell this money went do? I believe it was the Republican House and Senate who passed a tax cut at a time when every state in the nation was broke? So where the hell is this money coming from?! We didnt even have the money to go off and fight this war. We had to borrow money from other countries in order to go and fight the war. Where the hell is the logic in that? If you can't afford something, then don't go and buy it!

As far as taxes go, I believe that giving a tax break to the wealthiest tax brackets does nothing to trickle down to the rest of the citizens of the US. How many of them manipulate the US Income Tax system putting money into tax-free items. If you want to make a tax cut, make one for the lower and middle class. They pull the country around, not the wealthiest brackets.

And what the hell was the point of the $300 check from the government to those who qualify?! What the hell are you going to do with $300 that is going to stimulate the economy? Maybe in 1950 this would have made a difference, but nowadays, **** that. That $300 wont do diddily to help out those people who need it. Same goes for the tax break if you have a child. Thats also a crock of ****.

There's a ton of other stuff that I will touch on later, but these are the first things I was thinking about.

I like what was said here.

Not entirely true. I'll explain. With abortion, the baby doesn't have a CHOICE. However the person on death row had a CHOICE and they chose to break the law to an extent that their life was the penalty.

however, there are scenarios in which abortion is legit. ONLY, if there is without a doubt a risk of life be it the mother or unborn child would I say abortion is an option, but only if it is 100% sure that there is risk of life with the child being born.

Dude, hell yeah, bullseye! Thanks for putting that quote up!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL. If thats the case and god doesent want me in, then **** him.

LMAO!

Ha ha ha ha ha.....this is coming from a guy who posted a story earlier about flipping some guy off! Wow, I love religious people.....you can do whatever you want and then just pray and it's all good! Sorry Danny...couldn't help it.

I'm with Jack on this one.....I'm a good person....volunteer and food bank and do every good deed I can...blah blah blah.....so if god doesn't want me, then screw him and the camel he road in on!

Ok thats a bit harsh, but seriously, you basically just scolded everyone who is not a devout christian and told them they were going to hell.

lol.

ha ha ha....feeling like you just insulted someone that could just snap his fingers and make you go away! ha ha ha.....yeah, I thought about that to after I replied! ha ha

Oh, yah, if there IS a hell im sure im going. LOL. Thats not the point. <laugh>

omg you guys aren't thinking clearly. But it's okay, it's expected for non-christians to think like non-christians. It's like parents who have a rebellious kid who is old enough to be kicked out. Yes, they love the kid dearly, but if the kid doesn't wanna go by the rules of the household, they get kicked out, end of story. Just bc the kid is good half the time, doesn't give him the right to disobey the other half.

But then again, it's really hard to humanize God and give analogies when they won't fit perfectly. If you have any concept of God and sin, you'll know that it's the only thing that He hates. If you realize that, you'll see how big of a deal it is. The fact that I flipped a guy off doesn't make me a hypocrite bc guess what...I'M NOT PERFECT. not even close. But I know the way to heaven, sure I stumble, but I correct my ways(sure as heck aint flippin anyone else off).

Besides, a middle finger is merely a symbol for a verbal obscenity, which is something that didn't even exist back in biblical times. All cursing does is hurts a christian's witness to non-christians, it doesn't make God love you any less. So nobody can pin me with "well you flipped that guy off" and call me a hypocrite. I'd be a hypocrite if I said "You shoudlnt flip people off" and THEN I went and did it. All that being a christian and flippin ppl off does is hurts ppls' perspective of me. Doesn't affect my relationship or future with God

When did this become a church session?

Thats cause god knows that guy was an asshole.

LOL

Getting to heaven has nothing to do with being a good person, you cannot get to heaven by works but only by faith, not work+faith or faith+ work only Faith. Being a good person is a bi- product.

on a side note, Just because I am a christian or Danny is doesn't mean we are perfect, everyne knows how hard it is to sometimes do the right thing in life. This is part of the reason i think some of the NON- christians are for lack of a better word affraid of the christian religion because you see us contridicting oursleves all the time. with is true to a certain extent, but remember no one is perfect

You don't have to have faith to get to "heaven". You just have to follow the rules of society.

what are the rules of society?

LOL, i always thought people were afraid of christians because in the past they went on thier crusades and killed millions of people who wouldnt convert, believeing they were evil and witches and stuff.

lol.......

LOL. What are the rules of heaven? and why is one group right over another? all religions have thier own rules. most religions claim if yer not of thier religion yer going to hell. In fact, if the jewish turn out to be correct all the christians will go to hell for believing in a false god(jesus).

rofl!!!!!!!!

lol....I have never heard of anything of the sort.....What are you talking about?.....im pretty sure its the other way around

Well, jesus was jewish. So If jesus was the son of god we can assume the jewish to that point were 100% right , however, christianity splintered off, believing jesus was the son of god, and worshiping him as the son of god.

The jewish dont believe he was the son of god, they dont believe that the christ was born. he is still on his way.

the christians and catholics have been worshiping the father, the son and the holy ghost. The son being Jesus, and praying to jesus, and all that. Accepting jesus as thier "LORD" and savior. lol

So, if the jewish are right, and Jesus was NOT the son of god, and just a prophet, then everyone is ****ed because god in the bible is a pretty staunchy bastard about worshiping false idols and figures. If the jewish were right, every christian and catholic have been worshiping a false god, because christians revere christ as much as god and pray to christ as well as god and put him right there with god.
Now, imagine you were praying to "the father, the son, and the holy ghost, and some asshole named steve" And lest say Steve is just some dude that everyone is praying to but has no relation to god. I think the god would take a pretty dim view of people putting steve there with him, and be pissed and damn the entire steve worshiping community.

On the other side of the coin, if the jewish are wrong and christ WAS the son of god, then they are all going to hell. They never take communion or get baptized, and without baptism the origional sin never gets washed away, so they are ****ed from the get go as well. They never accepted jesus christ as thier lord and savior.

LOL!!!!!!

Damned if ya do, damned if ya dont!

:devil2:


I dunno, maybe im wrong, but it seems everyone worships the same basic idea though different methods with different prspectives on it. But for the mopst part it is all the same. Dont lie, Dont cheat, Dont Steal, Dont kill. Treat people well and pull your own weight. And if you dont believe this specific religion, yer going to hell.
LOL.
I dont believe that personally. I dont think all the jews are gonna burn in hell any more than all the christians, or buddists, or catholics, or mormons are gonna burn in hell.

Tell ya what, Heaven must have one very very primere and select list as to who the bouncers let in, cause lets face it, at least 5 billion people out of the 6 billion are doomed to go to hell. And i dont even think there IS a religion that boasts a billion people.

I got a kick out of southpark with the golden PSP episode. Turnes out the mormons are right and heaven is pretty damn empty. LOL

When danny started preaching! ha ha ha ha

Danny, I have no issues with people being religious.......I went to a christian school until 8th grade and most of my family are very religious. What I do have a problem with is when religous people think they are better than someone else because they have "accepted" god into their life....or have found the "path" to heaven. I witnessed that kind of attitude from way too many people in my life. Now, to be fair there are A LOT of religious people out there who aren't like.....but that has just been my experience.

I also have a problem with people who go to church on sunday, but wouldn't hold a door open for a little old lady if you paid them to! To me, those are the little things that make a good person.....might not get me to heaven, but I'd rather be a good person (again, I'm just speaking in general)

So what I'm saying Danny is that just because a person has chosen the "path" or whatever you want to call it doesn't give that person an excuse to do wrong and then throw their hands up and say "oooops, I'm not perfect and god doesn't expect me to be perfect so it's ok if I foul up....I'll just ask for forgiveness". The real world doesn't work like that....try that one with a judge and see how far you get. ha ha ha ha....

anyway, I'm unsubscribing cause I pretty much come here to talk about mustangs

I think Mary got knocked up by some other dude and just said it was "god"

Okay well how about this, do you know how many times the government is wrong when it comes to death row convictions. The ACLU states that "In the past 30 years, 122 inmates were found to be innocent and released from death row." And that is not including the number of people who have already been put to death that were innocent. Did they make a "CHOICE?" No. The scary thing is that anyone can get wrapped up in something like this. And consider that there have only been something like a little over 1,000 people put to death since the 1930s. So that means since the 1970s/ 1980s since the ACLU has been doing these statistics, that well over 1 in 10 people sentenced to death have been found innocent. Those are terrible odds.

And on the abortion note. So you're saying if a child is going to be born completely mentally disabled, physically handicapped, but has good health in terms of their condition not being "life threatening," that you would still want to have the child, even though you would know before the child was born that they would have this dibilitating deformities. You would put a child into this world when the world eats people without disabilities alive? Yes, the child does not have a choice, but responsible people DO and making that CHOICE is never easy, but sometimes (granted not always) that the welfare of the child would be best left to parents who want and have planned for the child. We all want the best for our children and it is selfish of us to just spit them out and put them in a foster home or raise them in a family that never really wanted them.

I think the guy's name was Immaculate...he was a Spaniard no less (thus the name Hey-sues)!

wow jack! I didnt know you had it in you! Honestly though, you hit alot of good points, and you apparently know a good deal. The real fact of the matter is, God wants us to know who He is and wants us to know the truth. This kick JW and mormons out bc in their religion, questioning the truth is forbidden. You are thought to be pagaen if you even ask "why did this happen?" or attempt to do a study on your own. They both strongly discourage lookin up history to the point of kicking you out of the religion if you start pointing out errors.

Fact is, with christianity, there are no errors. You laugh, and type "yeah right" but yet, I want you to show me ONE contradiction in the bible. And I'm not talkin about number errors. In translating how they did in older times, typos or numerical errors have happened. but that doesnt mean the bible contradicts itself. You also have to know the greek/hebrew originals versions to fully understand the scope.

Basically, with the jews, Jesus did miraculous things daily, and the old testament(which they believe in) clearly prophesizes the messiah and jesus fulfilled every single prophecy. They just expected him to come as a real life king or royalty.

With Islam, a man who is a self-proclaimed 100% human wrote a book about what "God told him" while he was by himself. I also find it strange that in India, they refuse to translate the q'uran into other languages. People who are french, german, or anything else must learn arabic before they can learn the quran.

ok enough typing. I doubt many of you will even read all this

You obviously have not done your research when it comes to JW's. I am an agnostic, i have never been christian, or any other religion before, but i understand manny other religions just because i like the debates. I have more respect for JW's then any other type of christainity, becuase they actually do what the bible says, they dont just put there church time in and call it a day.

any JW i have ever met or interacted with allways does research, and they do question things, they just look to the bible for answers.

p.s. i agree with the dude about damned if ya do, damned if you dont.

there are THOUSANDS of potentially correct religions in this world, no one person has the time to devote to go through them systematically and check all of them, and then you pick one, and your chances of going to a sort of 'heaven' are what? 1/1000? 1/10000?

that sucks!

and i dont think there is any way to KNOW for sure, so why waist your time, live right, by the morals that you believe are right, and you will be rewarded

Um....yes, there was verbal obcenity in Biblical times. What high horse did you come off of, Mr. Robertson?

I think that its better that the Qaran isnt translated into other languages because of the fact that the teachings can be translated into things that are more beneficial to one set of Islamic beliefs rather than how they were meant to be read and taught. Interpretation is something that all religions are subject to, including Christianity.

Personally, I would prefer to read the original Greek of the Bible rather than the English versions that have been passed down to see what it really contained. I am a little skeptical that the current translation of the bible is a direct working translation from the Greek.