Headers or cams???

Blue Thunder · 10-01-2006, 08:55 PM

Ok basically here's what my budget allows me to do this year:
MGW shifter
MM Lower control arms
Steeda udp's
plus installation costs
Now the hard part.... long tube headers or VT stage 2 cams with manley springs and a new custom dyno tune?
I think cams are a better choice, but some told e that i should do things one step at a time and they said skipping headers straight for cams was bad for the car setup. I think they're stupid what u guys think?

DeltaV · 10-01-2006, 09:16 PM

Normally people go with the long tubes before they get cams. That way when the exhaust vavle opens you are albe to release the exhaust with less restriction and backpressure. I would go with headers next. Then cams. That way when you do get the cam you will get more power out of it and it will show up on the dyno!

GREG@SN95 · 10-01-2006, 09:23 PM

forget the other stuff and do both...

unless you really need the A-arms

*03gtmustang* · 10-01-2006, 09:58 PM

Its called supporting mods. Do headers first.

DeltaV · 10-01-2006, 11:19 PM

O i forgot to ask you... u need to put a pick of your flame throwers up! LOL. That Rocks!

foncarelli · 10-02-2006, 05:25 AM

I agree about the supporting mods because if you do headers, why not do a tubular k frame and A arms?

Blue Thunder · 10-02-2006, 07:27 AM

Yes that would be nice and all, but i can't afford a $600 install along with $400 headers longtubes are outta my budget. So ya'll are sayin i won't see gains if i do cams with no headers???? The installation cost of headers is just to much for me.

Blue Thunder · 10-02-2006, 07:27 AM

Yes that would be nice and all, but i can't afford a $600 install along with $400 headers longtubes are outta my budget. So ya'll are sayin i won't see gains if i do cams with no headers???? The installation cost of headers is just to much for me. What if i went with shorty or equal length headers instead?

foncarelli · 10-02-2006, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Thunder

Yes that would be nice and all, but i can't afford a $600 install along with $400 headers longtubes are outta my budget. So ya'll are sayin i won't see gains if i do cams with no headers???? The installation cost of headers is just to much for me. What if i went with shorty or equal length headers instead?

Go get your buddy with more mechanical skill and do it yourself. If i can do it, anybody can. I took my time(almost a week)and the install only cost me buying lunch and beer for my friend. You can get more mods by doing the install yourself.

Dont get me wrong, it was PITA.
__________________

04MustangGT · 10-02-2006, 08:53 AM

well if you are really looking for gains right there and then then do the cams. But heades will acompany the cams better than the stock ones will. You will probably have to get a new dyno tune if you were to do the cams first. We are not saying it wont work. YOu can anything you want to. With headers you dont pick up a huge gain until you get cams so....Your choice.

B-rett · 10-02-2006, 09:03 AM

i got cams first....but i got 1 hell of a deal on em.....couldnt pass up the lope......but headers are next

*madmatt* · 10-02-2006, 01:53 PM

Save yourself LOTS of money, and do ALL the installs yourself. Headers, pulleys, shifter, all not difficult installs, the headers are just time consuming. You can afford to buy another part for the money youll save in labor...

Blue Thunder · 10-02-2006, 02:45 PM

i lack the skills, tools, an dpatience required to do the installs on anything! LOL Well let me ask you this, if i don't do the headers and do the cams and springs with a custom dyno tune will it be ok for the car (safe). Also if i do cams with my current mods plus udp's and a new dyno tune what kinda hp and trque numbers (range) am i lookin at? Then the exact same question plus headers. I talked to my local shop and they said they will not install mac headers because of bad experiences so what lt headers would ya'll recommend?

*Lances03SVT* · 10-02-2006, 03:33 PM

You will be fine doing the Cam's first.You just won't get the full potential out of them untill you get the LT's.

*03gtmustang* · 10-02-2006, 04:31 PM

Im sorry, but you're making no sence at all Blue Thunder. You need to think about all of this first.

You say $400 for headers plus another $600 for just install is out of your budget. How much do you think a shop will charge to install cams and springs? I can tell you right now itll be more then $600. Plus the cams ALONE are around $550- $600. Then you have to add on the springs which is at least another $200. When its all said and done, you're looking at AT LEAST 1k for cams and springs including install. But it doesnt stop there. Youll HAVE to get the car DYNO tuned after installing the cams. So thatll be at least another $150. So total for the cams itll cost you around $1500 ($550 cams, $200 springs, $600 labor, $150 tune) and thats on the low side.

Then you have to think about how much power youll gain with the cams vs. the headers compared to prices. I highly doubt youll gain much more from cams and tune then you would from just LT's because you have ZERO supporting mods for the cams besides the gears.

What bad expirence has your shop run into with Mac LT's? There might of been some oil consumption issues, but I think that was more with the 4v. Those issues are fixed now and I havent heard of any problems with them. Im running them on my GT and I love them.

foncarelli · 10-02-2006, 04:48 PM

Speaking from experience on paying a professional to do the cams, you are talking from 1700 to 2000k. Cams is the only install i wouldnt attempt.

bassman97 · 10-02-2006, 07:25 PM

What makes it so hard to install cams yourself? Is it the bearing tolerances? It seems like it would be easier to do than on pushrod engines.

Blue Thunder · 10-02-2006, 09:16 PM

Ok well after thinking it over and talking to my local performance shop i have decided to do cams at a later date and finish ALL the other basic boltons. Here's my plan for this year performance wise:
BBK Longtube ceramic headers
MGW shifter
Steeda UDP's
MM Lower control arms
two BFG drag radials for the rear
MAYBE a cold air intake and a new TB
Am i forgetting any other basic mods that will gimme some power or performance gains? I feel as though i'm forgetting something. Cams will come later.

stage2roush2002 · 10-02-2006, 10:22 PM

I will have a pair of stage 2 n/a cams for sale shortly, if intrested. Im not in a big hurry to sell them but if you are interested I will keep you posted.

GREG@SN95 · 10-02-2006, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stage2roush2002

I will have a pair of stage 2 n/a cams for sale shortly, if intrested. Im not in a big hurry to sell them but if you are interested I will keep you posted.

used cams?

you can't do that...

once you match up cams to a valve train... the cam can't be switched to another motor... the cam/cams will grind flat... well at least thats what I was taught on OHV engines

same goes for bearings

*03gtmustang* · 10-03-2006, 07:44 AM

Thats not true.

csledd · 10-03-2006, 08:00 AM

yeah.. people use used cams ALL the time

Blue Thunder · 10-03-2006, 08:04 AM

Well hey if i can save money on some lightly used good quality VT stage II's then why not??? Sounds like a good deal. PM sent!

stage2roush2002 · 10-03-2006, 08:31 AM

Yeah you can use used cams...They dont adjust to the car, or anything like that.

10-01-2006, 08:55 PM	#1 (permalink)
Blue Thunder Speed Demon Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 487	Headers or cams??? Ok basically here's what my budget allows me to do this year: MGW shifter MM Lower control arms Steeda udp's plus installation costs Now the hard part.... long tube headers or VT stage 2 cams with manley springs and a new custom dyno tune? I think cams are a better choice, but some told e that i should do things one step at a time and they said skipping headers straight for cams was bad for the car setup. I think they're stupid what u guys think? __________________ Bullitt Mods: 4.10 's , Magnaflow Catback, Prochamber (OR), BBK Ceramic Lt's, Custom Tune, MGW Short Throw, SLP Line Lok, MM LCA's, MM XL SFC's, MRT CAI, Steeda UDP'S, Tokicko Illuminas, Steeda Sport Springs, MM CC Plates, X2 Balljoint, Bumpsteer Kit, MSD Coilpacks, Eaton LSD, 31 Mosers, Spec stage 2 clutch, Spec steel flywheel, M/T DR's. Cervini's RA Hood, 04 Cobra F. Bumper, 18" Bullitt Wheels, 20% Tint, HID Kit, Smoked Headlights, Painted interior trim(DHG), Seq. Tailights, Billett Stuff.

10-01-2006, 09:16 PM	#2 (permalink)
DeltaV Avg Gt owner w/ 44in vert Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Macon Ga Posts: 22	Normally people go with the long tubes before they get cams. That way when the exhaust vavle opens you are albe to release the exhaust with less restriction and backpressure. I would go with headers next. Then cams. That way when you do get the cam you will get more power out of it and it will show up on the dyno! __________________ Cammed, boltons, csprings and 3.90's! [image]http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u288/AirjustinsDeltaV/deltav3-1.jpg[/image]

10-01-2006, 09:58 PM	#4 (permalink)
03gtmustang Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Northern Va Posts: 3,245	Its called supporting mods. Do headers first. __________________ D&D Auto Detailing -Dan

10-01-2006, 11:19 PM	#5 (permalink)
DeltaV Avg Gt owner w/ 44in vert Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Macon Ga Posts: 22	O i forgot to ask you... u need to put a pick of your flame throwers up! LOL. That Rocks! __________________ Cammed, boltons, csprings and 3.90's! [image]http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u288/AirjustinsDeltaV/deltav3-1.jpg[/image]

10-02-2006, 05:25 AM	#6 (permalink)
foncarelli Everyday Im Hustlin Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Ecorse, Michigan Posts: 3,654	I agree about the supporting mods because if you do headers, why not do a tubular k frame and A arms? __________________

10-01-2006, 09:23 PM	#3 (permalink)
GREG@SN95 Banned Join Date: May 2006 Location: JACKSON NJ Posts: 4,135	forget the other stuff and do both... unless you really need the A-arms

10-02-2006, 07:27 AM	#7 (permalink)
Blue Thunder Speed Demon Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 487	Yes that would be nice and all, but i can't afford a $600 install along with $400 headers longtubes are outta my budget. So ya'll are sayin i won't see gains if i do cams with no headers???? The installation cost of headers is just to much for me. __________________ Bullitt Mods: 4.10 's , Magnaflow Catback, Prochamber (OR), BBK Ceramic Lt's, Custom Tune, MGW Short Throw, SLP Line Lok, MM LCA's, MM XL SFC's, MRT CAI, Steeda UDP'S, Tokicko Illuminas, Steeda Sport Springs, MM CC Plates, X2 Balljoint, Bumpsteer Kit, MSD Coilpacks, Eaton LSD, 31 Mosers, Spec stage 2 clutch, Spec steel flywheel, M/T DR's. Cervini's RA Hood, 04 Cobra F. Bumper, 18" Bullitt Wheels, 20% Tint, HID Kit, Smoked Headlights, Painted interior trim(DHG), Seq. Tailights, Billett Stuff.

10-02-2006, 07:27 AM	#8 (permalink)
Blue Thunder Speed Demon Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 487	Yes that would be nice and all, but i can't afford a $600 install along with $400 headers longtubes are outta my budget. So ya'll are sayin i won't see gains if i do cams with no headers???? The installation cost of headers is just to much for me. What if i went with shorty or equal length headers instead? __________________ Bullitt Mods: 4.10 's , Magnaflow Catback, Prochamber (OR), BBK Ceramic Lt's, Custom Tune, MGW Short Throw, SLP Line Lok, MM LCA's, MM XL SFC's, MRT CAI, Steeda UDP'S, Tokicko Illuminas, Steeda Sport Springs, MM CC Plates, X2 Balljoint, Bumpsteer Kit, MSD Coilpacks, Eaton LSD, 31 Mosers, Spec stage 2 clutch, Spec steel flywheel, M/T DR's. Cervini's RA Hood, 04 Cobra F. Bumper, 18" Bullitt Wheels, 20% Tint, HID Kit, Smoked Headlights, Painted interior trim(DHG), Seq. Tailights, Billett Stuff.

10-02-2006, 08:53 AM	#10 (permalink)
04MustangGT Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 354	well if you are really looking for gains right there and then then do the cams. But heades will acompany the cams better than the stock ones will. You will probably have to get a new dyno tune if you were to do the cams first. We are not saying it wont work. YOu can anything you want to. With headers you dont pick up a huge gain until you get cams so....Your choice. __________________ 04 GT 5 spd Modifications: SLP Catback Exhaust SLP catted X-Pipe SLP Headers Pro 5.0 Shifter H&R Sport Springs Raptor Shift light, 17x9 & 18x10 Black Bullitts http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c103/04MustangGT/ Soon To Come:4.10 Gears

10-02-2006, 09:03 AM	#11 (permalink)
B-rett BMC Member# 03209 Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: north ridgeville, ohio Posts: 1,639	i got cams first....but i got 1 hell of a deal on em.....couldnt pass up the lope......but headers are next __________________ ---35th Anniversary--- 265 rwhp 288 rwtq

10-02-2006, 01:53 PM	#12 (permalink)
madmatt Traitor...lol Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Lexington, SC Posts: 7,929	Save yourself LOTS of money, and do ALL the installs yourself. Headers, pulleys, shifter, all not difficult installs, the headers are just time consuming. You can afford to buy another part for the money youll save in labor... __________________ RPMPlanets

10-02-2006, 02:45 PM	#13 (permalink)
Blue Thunder Speed Demon Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 487	i lack the skills, tools, an dpatience required to do the installs on anything! LOL Well let me ask you this, if i don't do the headers and do the cams and springs with a custom dyno tune will it be ok for the car (safe). Also if i do cams with my current mods plus udp's and a new dyno tune what kinda hp and trque numbers (range) am i lookin at? Then the exact same question plus headers. I talked to my local shop and they said they will not install mac headers because of bad experiences so what lt headers would ya'll recommend? __________________ Bullitt Mods: 4.10 's , Magnaflow Catback, Prochamber (OR), BBK Ceramic Lt's, Custom Tune, MGW Short Throw, SLP Line Lok, MM LCA's, MM XL SFC's, MRT CAI, Steeda UDP'S, Tokicko Illuminas, Steeda Sport Springs, MM CC Plates, X2 Balljoint, Bumpsteer Kit, MSD Coilpacks, Eaton LSD, 31 Mosers, Spec stage 2 clutch, Spec steel flywheel, M/T DR's. Cervini's RA Hood, 04 Cobra F. Bumper, 18" Bullitt Wheels, 20% Tint, HID Kit, Smoked Headlights, Painted interior trim(DHG), Seq. Tailights, Billett Stuff.

10-02-2006, 03:33 PM	#14 (permalink)
Lances03SVT Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Location: Carthage, Missouri Posts: 9,247	You will be fine doing the Cam's first.You just won't get the full potential out of them untill you get the LT's. __________________ _______________________ 2003 Cobra SOLD

10-02-2006, 04:31 PM	#15 (permalink)
03gtmustang Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Northern Va Posts: 3,245	Im sorry, but you're making no sence at all Blue Thunder. You need to think about all of this first. You say $400 for headers plus another $600 for just install is out of your budget. How much do you think a shop will charge to install cams and springs? I can tell you right now itll be more then $600. Plus the cams ALONE are around $550- $600. Then you have to add on the springs which is at least another $200. When its all said and done, you're looking at AT LEAST 1k for cams and springs including install. But it doesnt stop there. Youll HAVE to get the car DYNO tuned after installing the cams. So thatll be at least another $150. So total for the cams itll cost you around $1500 ($550 cams, $200 springs, $600 labor, $150 tune) and thats on the low side. Then you have to think about how much power youll gain with the cams vs. the headers compared to prices. I highly doubt youll gain much more from cams and tune then you would from just LT's because you have ZERO supporting mods for the cams besides the gears. What bad expirence has your shop run into with Mac LT's? There might of been some oil consumption issues, but I think that was more with the 4v. Those issues are fixed now and I havent heard of any problems with them. Im running them on my GT and I love them. __________________ D&D Auto Detailing -Dan

10-02-2006, 04:48 PM	#16 (permalink)
foncarelli Everyday Im Hustlin Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Ecorse, Michigan Posts: 3,654	Speaking from experience on paying a professional to do the cams, you are talking from 1700 to 2000k. Cams is the only install i wouldnt attempt. __________________

10-02-2006, 07:25 PM	#17 (permalink)
bassman97 blank Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: North Jersey Posts: 1,497	What makes it so hard to install cams yourself? Is it the bearing tolerances? It seems like it would be easier to do than on pushrod engines.

10-02-2006, 09:16 PM	#18 (permalink)
Blue Thunder Speed Demon Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 487	Ok well after thinking it over and talking to my local performance shop i have decided to do cams at a later date and finish ALL the other basic boltons. Here's my plan for this year performance wise: BBK Longtube ceramic headers MGW shifter Steeda UDP's MM Lower control arms two BFG drag radials for the rear MAYBE a cold air intake and a new TB Am i forgetting any other basic mods that will gimme some power or performance gains? I feel as though i'm forgetting something. Cams will come later. __________________ Bullitt Mods: 4.10 's , Magnaflow Catback, Prochamber (OR), BBK Ceramic Lt's, Custom Tune, MGW Short Throw, SLP Line Lok, MM LCA's, MM XL SFC's, MRT CAI, Steeda UDP'S, Tokicko Illuminas, Steeda Sport Springs, MM CC Plates, X2 Balljoint, Bumpsteer Kit, MSD Coilpacks, Eaton LSD, 31 Mosers, Spec stage 2 clutch, Spec steel flywheel, M/T DR's. Cervini's RA Hood, 04 Cobra F. Bumper, 18" Bullitt Wheels, 20% Tint, HID Kit, Smoked Headlights, Painted interior trim(DHG), Seq. Tailights, Billett Stuff.

10-02-2006, 10:22 PM	#19 (permalink)
stage2roush2002 Roush #6147 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 476	I will have a pair of stage 2 n/a cams for sale shortly, if intrested. Im not in a big hurry to sell them but if you are interested I will keep you posted.

10-03-2006, 07:44 AM	#21 (permalink)
03gtmustang Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Northern Va Posts: 3,245	Thats not true. __________________ D&D Auto Detailing -Dan

10-03-2006, 08:00 AM	#22 (permalink)
csledd DSG!!! Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paducah, KY Posts: 3,074	yeah.. people use used cams ALL the time __________________ CAP DSG Registry 2003 Mustang GT - daily driven check out my cardomain for more info 296 rwhp / 310 rwtq Money spent @ AM: $4623.20 1984 Mustang Hatch - low budget project

10-03-2006, 08:04 AM	#23 (permalink)
Blue Thunder Speed Demon Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 487	Well hey if i can save money on some lightly used good quality VT stage II's then why not??? Sounds like a good deal. PM sent! __________________ Bullitt Mods: 4.10 's , Magnaflow Catback, Prochamber (OR), BBK Ceramic Lt's, Custom Tune, MGW Short Throw, SLP Line Lok, MM LCA's, MM XL SFC's, MRT CAI, Steeda UDP'S, Tokicko Illuminas, Steeda Sport Springs, MM CC Plates, X2 Balljoint, Bumpsteer Kit, MSD Coilpacks, Eaton LSD, 31 Mosers, Spec stage 2 clutch, Spec steel flywheel, M/T DR's. Cervini's RA Hood, 04 Cobra F. Bumper, 18" Bullitt Wheels, 20% Tint, HID Kit, Smoked Headlights, Painted interior trim(DHG), Seq. Tailights, Billett Stuff.

10-03-2006, 08:31 AM	#24 (permalink)
stage2roush2002 Roush #6147 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 476	Yeah you can use used cams...They dont adjust to the car, or anything like that.