What are your thoughts about the Government bailing out the US auto industry?

 

I'd rather that the big three took care of themselves but if they were to go under the number of jobs lost would be way to high

 

I think it's pretty damn stupid that we handed AIG $100+/- Billion dollars no questions asked, and god knows how many other lenders/ banks untold amounts of money with the same conditions.

Yet our lovely government is bitching about helping our domestic auto makers with what? A meesley $45 billion between all three in which Ford doesn't even plan to use????... I think we have an extraordinarily dumb government.

I have the easiest plan to bailout our automakers in the world..

1. Get rid of all private CEO jets/ airplanes. They can fly coach, just like the rest of America.
2. $1.00 Salary for CEO's for each Co. for 4 years. (They've made 10's of Millions for the last 8-10 years, 4 years won't hurt them.)
3. Tell the UAW to back down, or fire all Union employees, eligible for re-hire at cut salary. $50-85/hr is rediculous for working an automated assembly line. Let them picket, who cares? They either come back to a job at a cut salary or don't work. Up to them.

Crisis solved.

 

They are already doing steps 1 and 2

 

they should have been forced to all file bankruptcy and restructure. Completely against bailing anyone out

 

If they were bankrupt they would eventually collapse altogether people from the US might by stuff from them but their sales over seas would go straight to hell and we would end up losing well over a million jobs

 

This has to stop. The big three need to feel the pain of making stupid business decisions (letting their cars wither while they concentrate on SUVs). They screwed up, they have to pay. We need to stop giving out handouts also because it also hurst everyone in the end. The money for any bailout has to come from somewhere and that somewhere is your pocket. What good are all these bailouts when in the end, we have to pay for it and when we do, we won't be spending as much anyway. Plus, I don't care how little the auto bailout is, the US checking account is -10 trillion. We are already in the hole, we don't need to go deeper.

If the government wants to save the auto makers, they would get rid of CAFE and let Detroit build what it wants to build, levy heavy tariffs on Japanese vehicles until the Japanese stop manipulating their currency to make US cars expensive there, and give the auto makers a tax rebate when they export (the Europeans do this). The last bit is UAW and other unions need to stop being greedy. They need to realize that they have two choices: either to keep doing what they are doing which will in the end means the company leaves or tanks or to be reasonable in which both parties win. It is sickening to see how well off many union workers are while others struggle. In addition, the government needs to make it illegal to have union shops. No company should be forced to hire only union members and no worker should be forced to join a union. Either or is a violation of personal liberties in freedom of choice.

 

IMO they brought it upon themselves so they deal with the consequences. We don't need a: Chevy, Pontiac, Hummer, Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Buick, Cadillac, GMC, Sabb, Saturn. No ones here to bail out the average citizens so let the big companies bail themselves out and it will either be successful or they go down the toilet... their choice. Greed got them all into it so let them get themselves out

 

I'll believe it when I see the for sale signs on the Jets.

They are doing number 2, but only for one year, not 4.

 

Excuse me? We don't need domestic automakers? So, when all of the Domestics are gone and there is only Jap crap with prices cranked through the roof you let me know how that works out.

 

I read an article that Ford already sold it's jets

 

I'm saying we don't need that many yes. Why spend all the money producing Hummers when there is a small amount of the general public that actually buys them etc. If you think everyone NEEDS the right to pick out of 11 brands of vehicles your crazy. They should get rid of the lowest selling lines until they can get themselves out of their mess. If you don't think theres any logic to that then fine because I'm sure there's a hell of a lot of people overseas buying Hummers, Saturns, Buicks and GMC trucks haha

 

The auto industry brought it upon themselves, and were not staying ahead of the curve like foreign auto makers.

But either way if they fail, Michigan's high unemployment rate of 9.3% is only going to skyrocket even more. Mosty likely my dad would lose his jobs even though he has nothing to with automobiles.

 

Where are you from in michigan pistons fan just curious


edit but yeah michigan really needs a break

 

I live in Metro-Detroit. About 15 miles north of the city.

 

No, I thought you were implying that we didn't need domestic auto-makers.

I agree completely that Hummer should be gone with the exception of Military vehicles, as well as Buick, Lincoln, Mercury, GMC, Pontiac, etc..

Really there are only a few worth keeping.. Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Saturn and maybe Saab.

 

I never understood why GM had Chevy and GMC it never really made sense. You would think if they consolidated, production costs would go way down.

 

GM is considering closing Saturn, Pontiac and is currently in talks with the Changan Automobile Group of China about selling all of Saab. Ford is also in talks with either that company or another Chinese auto group (I forget) about the sale of Volvo. Ford has also put Russian production into idle, and Pontiac is currently considering abandoning the G8 and will put all G8 production into idle for 25 days. So it seems like those two are trying...I haven't heard much of anything from Chrysler except for how they're ending their joint mini-car partnership with the Chinese, Cherry group.

 

I agree with a lot that has been said...


Bassman also got some good points. Japanese should stop getting tax breaks, it costs american automakers more to make and sell thier cars than forign because imports get all the tax breaks. Our own regulations were a serious part of the downfall.

also, we need to stop just HANDING money over. Giving any organization 10 billion so they can turn around and pay like 600 million to rename a stadium is a complete waste of the money.

in order for the companys to get a dime of the bailout money they need to have every single penny that is spend approved by the government which is giving them the money.

This is insane. By the way the american dollar is going to drop, america will be owned by the chinese faster than you can say Kung Pow Chicken

 

This is a huge part of the problem. You can get the same exact car labeled with 3-5 different names. They're literally nothing but skin and options packages on existing chassis platforms that have been kinda long in the tooth for a good many years. You can have a GMC Yukon, a Hummer H2, Chevy Tahoe, Cadillac Escalade (I'm sure I'm missing one) which are all the same car based on the same chassis with skin and trim. Detroit has been out of ideas for many years and has turned to the excess of brands as an effort to grab as much of the niche markets as possible.

They should just offer a few cars in the basic size classes, make them extremely well and try not to rape the consumer on the maintenance. Unions are legal extortion and nothing more. All the money that the "worker" gets that would be considered excessive is eventually paid to the union in administrative/referral/dues/blah fees. Money which the union leaders eventually pocket or pay to political puppets. Zap the union shop crap and pay the worker instead of the union. People used to be willing to pay more for American made goods because we knew the quality was there. Now factories are loading themselves down with the cheapest labor they can find and quality suffers just so they can try to compete on price with products in a different quality class. Woe is we.

don't even get me started.

 

You guys are all retarded with the Union bullcrap. Unions are what allowed Ford employees like my father to keep their jobs. Union workers don't make any more money than non-Union, instead CNN and all of the other dumbass media people read posts that they make $50-$70 an hour. This is calculated by adding in health care, insurance, and the money that is sent to retirees. But, you can keep believeing the media. Meanwhile, the Japanese can keep making ****-loads of money from all of the people buying foreign cars and reinvesting it into their own country.

The problem with our economy has almost nothing to do with the automakers. Instead, its our 'hands-off' government who wants peace with the entire world and refuses to tax foreign cars like they do to us. Here's an example for you, the hybrid vehicles that Ford and Chevrolet make are all on a 16-month waiting list. Why do you ask? Because, the Japanese are the ones who make the batteries for these cars, and with the patent we can't make our own. So, instead of letting us buy how many batteries we need, they put a hold on these batteries so our domestic vehicles can't out sell theirs. This, in retrospect, causes higher prices for these vehicles as well because, once again, Ford and GM has to pay taxes on these items.

Now, if you want to let the domestic companies go under, and watch the main basis of our economy fall to pieces as the Japanese and others laugh in our face, go ahead, I'll sit back and laugh when it happens. One in every ten jobs would either be shut-down, or suffer more than a 50% pay-cut if ANY one of the three fell. Now I don't know exact figures, but thats a lot. But, it's their fault right? Ford CEO's are the reason that our economy is falling apart, even though for almost twelve years Bill Ford didn't take a salary, only a Christmas bonus and a vacation bonus.

I don't want to start an argument, but if you seriously believe we should let them fall, you are ignorant. Flat out simple.

 

Slight error is interpreting what I said. The problem isn't tax breaks w/ the Japanese but having *****. Japan has always manipulated their currency so US cars cost more over in Japan yet our government has done nothing to confront them.

Also, let's go into the problems w/ the unions. Just because your dad isn't getting paid that much doesn't mean everyone else isn't. Also, the union negotiated healthcare and pension plans that are a little extravagant don't you think? For example, the people who get a pension check from GM out numbers the amount of people they currently employ. Add to it healthcare and that fact that both aren't humble, you see how this can be a drain. Ever want to see union abuse? Take a look at construction. Pot hole workers in NYC were paid a full day and only were required to fill 4 pot holes. You think it takes 8 hours to fill 4 pot holes?

Lastly, the the way GM and Ford are can't get any more trim. Ford has 5 divisions, all of which fills a nitch (Ford=cheap/trucks, Mercury=mid-level, Lincoln=luxury, Mazda=sporty, and Volvo=European). GM however needs to cut some fat. Saturn needs to go because that's the point of Chevy (cheap cars). GMC needs to either make large trucks again instead of light-duty trucks or Chevy needs to stop making the Silverado and SUVs. Hummer is just pointless and needs to go. Buick too is kind of useless and GM would have been better off keeping Olds as what Caddy is now, Caddy as ultimate luxury, and killing Buick since the only people that buy Buicks are 65+. Saab has a valid segment, just GM is retarded and not exploiting it.

If the automakers aren't treated as spoiled children, they will make it out not only fine, but better than ever since they'll finally realize that there is no one to fall back on for poor business decisions.

 

No one is putting the blame soley on unions, but you have to come to reality also. Unions due raise income and benefits for it's members. Otherwise they wouldn't exist. I knew a guy making over 100k a year with overtime. Thats pretty damn good money if you ask me without an education. Its simple economics. Unions raise wages for its workers and as a result some people will lose their jobs. I think unions are part of the past now and won't be around much longer.


But back on track, I put the blame mainly on the management and CEOs of the big 3. GM was way ahead with electric cars back in the 1990's and now they are in last place with that piece of crap, the Volt. The got greedy by selling SUVs, when they forgot about the future.

 

Bassman97, you bring up another good point about the unions. When some people put their years in working, it was almost a no-brainer to retire because their pensions were enormous packages.

Why work, when you can make almost as much sitting at home?

 

I agree with that last statement. The whole pension set-up is ridiculous. However, I do want to point out that right now Ford is voting to pass taking away part of those pensions so you can't say they aren't trying.

As for the whole electric car ordeal, I don't believe we will ever be as advanced as we should be. Time and time again all of the auto manufacturers have said that there isn't a reason to research electric cars, or other types of fossil fuel free cars, because the US isn't in the dire situation that Europe and other countries are.

The thing that kills me the most is that even if you had the money to import vehicles such as the Ford Fiesta or the VW Golf Mark VI you can't simply because of stupid *** regulations our government puts on the cars; such as spare tire size, and the metallic make up of the catalytic converters. My point is that the Big 3 aren't whose corrupt, it is the whole government in general. The Department of Transportation, Customs, our ***-backwards economy, all of it has to do with the downfall of not just the auto industry but the economy as a whole.

We send our plants and manufacturing overseas where we have to spend more money for the taxes and other tariffs put on our imports. NAFTA and all of the other crap that is suppose to allow "free-trade" is what is coming back and slapping us in the face. I'm not racist, nor do I hate any other race, but when half of our so-called "domestic vehicles" are made in Mexico because the workers there will take a job for $5 an hour no **** we're in the predicament that we are now....IMO

 

yah, i was just expanding on that point, the governments foriegn policies regarding the sale of foriegn cars really gave foriegn companys an unfair advantage in the US auto market.

Combine that with driven up costs of Unions (pension payouts) and the production of realtivly boring cars from 1970 through 2000 (not a lot of exciting cars in that period) plus a **** reputation due to the production of poorly made economy cars (pretty much anything with a 4cyl), and you got some problems.

 

No bail out for anyone!! If we are to bail out anything it needs to be our Health Care system!!!

 

Sounds a bit contradicting.

But anyway. The glory days of the 90's from NAFTA are clearly over and we are getting the butt end of free trade now when workers in other countries will work for a fraction of the price. For the most part free trade is a good thing, but damn we aren't benefiting much from it anymore.

Its not even manufacturing jobs that are being sent overseas. My uncle who is a an accountant at FMC said that Ford (within the past few years) moved an entire accounting division over to India.

 

The health care system doesn't need a bailout, they need a slap in the face....the insurance companies especially. F them.

I haven't formed an opinion yet on the auto industry bailout, but you all bring up some good points. I just want to know where it stops? What's next a Circuit City bailout?

 

The thing is banks needed to be bailed out because credit would be completely frozen. So what did the government do? Give them money without little strings attached, allowing CitiGroup to have their name on the Mets new baseball stadium at like $600 million or something. Where was the freaking regulation there?

I dont't know how it is around the rest of the country but the Big 3 make up Michigan. Everyone and their job here is affected by how well they do.