Anyone intrested in 5.4L swaps, in here. Need you to opine.
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Blitzman thank you for your response but a couple of things I dont understand. Void also asked you what he would make, I realise that he is planning on a fairly high compression ratio but he plans to run with shorty headers, stock heads, and a just a pleneum not a intake whereas I was planning on a p-51 intake to help with breathing. He also is running the motor through a auto. I understand you are just estimating the power output of the combos void and I are planning on building but to me it doesnt make sense that I would only be making 5 rwhp and 20rwtq more with a better breathing set-up. I am not saying your wrong I am just looking for further insight into maybe some the parts I picked for the build are not ideal? maybe it is the higher compression void is planning to run? I think I would like to be around 10.5 cr as I use 91 octane gas and it is a street car.
Blitzman thank you for your response but a couple of things I dont understand. Void also asked you what he would make, I realise that he is planning on a fairly high compression ratio but he plans to run with shorty headers, stock heads, and a just a pleneum not a intake whereas I was planning on a p-51 intake to help with breathing. He also is running the motor through a auto. I understand you are just estimating the power output of the combos void and I are planning on building but to me it doesnt make sense that I would only be making 5 rwhp and 20rwtq more with a better breathing set-up. I am not saying your wrong I am just looking for further insight into maybe some the parts I picked for the build are not ideal? maybe it is the higher compression void is planning to run? I think I would like to be around 10.5 cr as I use 91 octane gas and it is a street car.
His CR on the 5.4 should produce more than a breathing setup on the 5.4 simply because the adapters and heads will limit the amount of breathing. I wouldn't worry about the intake and go with heads instead well at least until a true 5.4 intake comes out in which case the problem should be solved but even then...Remember the Bullitt intake was onlt a 5hp increase over the stock intake on a N/A motor, so don't expect a whole lot more from a P-51 on a N/A motor.
Red correct me if I'm wrong?
And yes these are all estimates based on the few results we've seen and from running the numbers with flow charts and other calculations.
yea, i don't think mine would make that much but who knows. I think i will hand work on the ports on the heads, maybe a port match and some bowl cleaning. And a good valve job.
So to get the 11:1 out of it , i would need to run flat tops right?
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98 GT Vert, 4r70w
Pi intake/cam swap. Mac prochamber o/r and cat back. Cobra body kit, Stalker hood, Steeda race wing, 95 Cobra R's "Ford" not nock offs. Modded Eibach prokit. Some other stuff but no biggy.
11.1:1 = flat tops. You'll find that to be a rowdy engine.
VOID: those stock heads will pull you back about 20-30hp. Remember... we're fighting exactly 1 architectural problem... lack of flow through the heads. Everything else can be helped with bolt on parts and cams... heads need porting for maximum returns. If you can't afford it... wait and benefit.
gtvert: you'll need to have better than stock cams to make any use of that p51 intake. It's a good intake for the job but it needs to be cut loose with the proper cam. I'm betting you're local (Cali) so, I'd start with the xe262 or xe270. The 270 will be hard to make pass smog but it's been done before. For the power you want, you need a really substantial build. 10.5:1, fat cam, race ported heads, short runner intake, and all the bottom end you can afford. I wouldn't do all that on the stock rods... pistons yeah but not on those rods.
I'm betting on 325+rwhp and a good bit more tq. That's with xe270's, ported HPS intake, ported custom adapter plates, high compression, 75mm tb/plenum, ported heads with bigger valves on a built bottom end and a manual.
Someone asked about which way to go... I'd look at a 3v 5.4. Power would be insane and uniqueness points abound in such a work.
Yep, i guess i could port the heads up and then send it off to get bigger valves put in. What size valves would you recommend? hmmmm , more work than i thought. Maybe i should just work on the 5.4 and then bolt up a b headed 4v setup :P
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98 GT Vert, 4r70w
Pi intake/cam swap. Mac prochamber o/r and cat back. Cobra body kit, Stalker hood, Steeda race wing, 95 Cobra R's "Ford" not nock offs. Modded Eibach prokit. Some other stuff but no biggy.
r3dn3ck my plan was to use comp 270 cams and vt stage 2 heads. I was also the one that mentioned 3 valve but if I were to go that route I was planning on sticking with a 4.6 due to only the truck intake being available for the 5.4 3 valve. What really draws me to the 5.4 is the ability to carry bolt ons over from my 4.6 to the 5.4 when I come to build one, the torque and the fact it is n/a. This will be my first build but I just feel that n/a power is more useable on the street. I see you mention race ported heads, in your view would vt stage 2 heads be such a item or am I looking at needing a better head, on the vt website they list stage 3 as coming soon but they have no flow numbers. Also do any manufacturers produce a long tube header specifically for the 5.4 in a mustang or will I be looking at custom headers or adapted 4.6 headers. I had kooks in mind as many people believe they are at the top of the food chain.
I am really looking forward to your build to finish as I have not see many 5.4 mustangs complete with ported heads and cams, mostly bolt ons or power adder cars I believe. I do remember a blue roush from a few months back and I think his numbers were 340 rwhp and 340 rwtq, I also believe you said the lightning lower and cobra upper intake was a poorly finished product and better results could be acheived with a different intake. At this point I am stuck between what I want to build and I am just trying to take as much in as possible.
I also forgot I am not in Cali but in Toronto, Ontario. From what I understand though our emission testing is very similar to yours so I will be interested to see if your car passes with the 270 cams.
looks like a sheetmetal piece of junk to me. but thats just me. lol
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98 GT Vert, 4r70w
Pi intake/cam swap. Mac prochamber o/r and cat back. Cobra body kit, Stalker hood, Steeda race wing, 95 Cobra R's "Ford" not nock offs. Modded Eibach prokit. Some other stuff but no biggy.
r3dn3ck my plan was to use comp 270 cams and vt stage 2 heads. I was also the one that mentioned 3 valve but if I were to go that route I was planning on sticking with a 4.6 due to only the truck intake being available for the 5.4 3 valve. What really draws me to the 5.4 is the ability to carry bolt ons over from my 4.6 to the 5.4 when I come to build one, the torque and the fact it is n/a. This will be my first build but I just feel that n/a power is more useable on the street. I see you mention race ported heads, in your view would vt stage 2 heads be such a item or am I looking at needing a better head, on the vt website they list stage 3 as coming soon but they have no flow numbers. Also do any manufacturers produce a long tube header specifically for the 5.4 in a mustang or will I be looking at custom headers or adapted 4.6 headers. I had kooks in mind as many people believe they are at the top of the food chain.
I am really looking forward to your build to finish as I have not see many 5.4 mustangs complete with ported heads and cams, mostly bolt ons or power adder cars I believe. I do remember a blue roush from a few months back and I think his numbers were 340 rwhp and 340 rwtq, I also believe you said the lightning lower and cobra upper intake was a poorly finished product and better results could be acheived with a different intake. At this point I am stuck between what I want to build and I am just trying to take as much in as possible.
vt's stage 2 is equal to most others race port. Race porting sacrifices a lot of low speed performance for overall flow... on 4.6's this makes for a crappy feeling motor, on a 5.4 there's room to allow a little tq drop for some hp increase. With the 270 and stage 2 VT heads, your intake choice will be the deciding factor in your overall power output. A Reichard intake or one similar to my ported HPS, or a P-51 intake would all be about ideal other than being for 4.6's (HPS plates should have little effect on flow). I don't have enough anecdotal evidence to be very sure but so far on my software dyno sim app such combos turn in high 300's in bhp... which is low to mid 300's in rwhp. Torque will thankfully never be a problem for us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtvert
I also forgot I am not in Cali but in Toronto, Ontario. From what I understand though our emission testing is very similar to yours so I will be interested to see if your car passes with the 270 cams.
I'm interested to see if it does too. I'll end up tuning the car so it'll pass. I'm also adding a second pair of cats to my pipes. I don't mind losing 10hp if it keeps my air clean.
They seem to be a good old fashioned fabricators. All the work I've seen from them so far has been innovative and well done. I can't speak to their design but it looks like a short runner, large plenum setup which would be ideal.
I think I'll hit em' up and see if they'd let me test one on a 5.4 (or maybe Myillwillinc should call them... hint hint.)
BTW guys how many of you want a set of Long Tubes that fit the 5.4L and how much are you willing to pay? I fabricated my own and can duplicate them, they take alot of work getting them perfect but if your willing to pay I'll create a few sets. It'll be alot cheaper than having a custom set made.
if you don't mind me asking ... what did you do to them to make them work... I've asked around and no one seems to be able to give a strait answer. I'm looking at sometime in the next couple years doing a 5.4 dohc swap with b heads... so i was wondering cuz i'm going to go ahead and do the dohc 4.6 swap and just reuse the headers but cut them and make them work. Thanks.
Mitchell
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98 GT Vert, 4r70w
Pi intake/cam swap. Mac prochamber o/r and cat back. Cobra body kit, Stalker hood, Steeda race wing, 95 Cobra R's "Ford" not nock offs. Modded Eibach prokit. Some other stuff but no biggy.
you have to cut the tubes off the flanges, pull them from the collector and custom weld them so they clear the passenger side frame rail and the steering shaft.
you have to cut the tubes off the flanges, pull them from the collector and custom weld them so they clear the passenger side frame rail and the steering shaft.
This is basically what we are doing, we mocked up a set of MAC headers, and then made the adjustments to those. Its a tight fit and my local muffler shops wouldnt even deal with it so we broke out the welder and after a couple of hours of toying with it we know exactly what works now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by myillwillinc
what kind of price are we talking about?
We are looking at about $650 + shipping (coated) or $500 + shipping for stainless steel. That covers the cost of the pipe plus the flanges and a couple hours of labor on each. We cant mass produce these like MAC so we are a little more expensive, but it is a specialty item.
I believe hookers are a little different design than the MAC headers, but with enough work you could pull it off, might cost ya a couple of hundred dollars at a local shop to do the work.
i think i may have come across the solution to a lot of people intake problems. or at least what can become a solution to maky peoples intake problems.
i can't remember the companies name, or find them online right now. my google skills are slacking, lol. but last night i read up one what one company is doing with 4v cobra intakes and we could apply it to the 2v 5.4l intake problem.
they take the 96-98 cobra lowerand cut out the factory intake runners within the manifold than weld in sheetmetal tapered "short" runners. They cobra upper is modified to suit their needs and fits right back where it goes.
the first step is already done for us with the lightning lower. if i for some reason can remember the shops name, or if one of you already know who i'm talking about, we can get into contact with them about doing a lightning version. I was also thinging a sheetmetal upper or graphed cobra upper like that blue mach 1 and viola! (of caurse, not exactly that easy) maybe even one of you are skilled enough to modify a lightning lower and add the runners by way of good ol fasion fabrication.
i just wish i'd bookmarked or something. "they" have a few pictures of the cobra lower and it is a thing of beauty. just the type of craftmanship the 5.4l is in need of.
plenum volume would be great, diferent profiled sheetmetal uppers could control that. and runner length would no longer be an issue as the runners would be specially sized for the application.
i'm still googleing for it.
i'm all giddy right now.
illwill... i read here about you looking for a lightning lower for a "special" purpose. is this what you had in mind?
of course, it would need to be a slightly different design, because the lightning lower doesn't have a straight down design on the runner, but i think it can be made to work well.
they take the 96-98 cobra lowerand cut out the factory intake runners within the manifold than weld in sheetmetal tapered "short" runners. They cobra upper is modified to suit their needs and fits right back where it goes.
the first step is already done for us with the lightning lower. if i for some reason can remember the shops name, or if one of you already know who i'm talking about, we can get into contact with them about doing a lightning version. I was also thinging a sheetmetal upper or graphed cobra upper like that blue mach 1 and viola! (of caurse, not exactly that easy) maybe even one of you are skilled enough to modify a lightning lower and add the runners by way of good ol fasion fabrication.
plenum volume would be great, diferent profiled sheetmetal uppers could control that. and runner length would no longer be an issue as the runners would be specially sized for the application.
illwill... i read here about you looking for a lightning lower for a "special" purpose. is this what you had in mind?
Very nice.. I've seen such things modded to work on B heads for 4.6 so doing it for a 5.4 would be fairly straightforward.
The lightning lower sits down low in the valley of the block which makes for more trouble getting the runners to be useful. I do have several design ideas and I've even been doing a little air-flow modeling on them. 1 is VERY promising, especially for a nitrous motor.
High plenum volume is critical to getting a super-stroker like this to have crisp throttle response and high winding capability. A long runner with a large plenum will decrease the benefit of the plenum capacity by using runners taht "tune" at lower engine speeds. One of the reasons I went so hog wild on my HPS intake was to gain volume while shortening the runners.
BTW... my runner length is now sitting at 8.75" (@ center of the runner) down from the stock PI intake's 15+ and the 12+ of the stock HPS intake. My volume has increased by 10oz and with the planned plenum spacer it should grow a full litre.
The lightning lower has 2" runners which makes for great top end but it choked the tq a little on the only car I've seen run NA with it. With another couple inches of runner his HP would have been the same-ish but tq would have grown within his existing rev range (higher rpms like shorter runners)
Quote:
Originally Posted by myillwillinc
i'm thinking that a 'lid' that can have a 2v plenum from my gt onto the lid...
sure can.. the blue roush that had the lightning lower used a cobra upper but a 2v plenum can just as easily be placed there.
BTW... just did a calc and for headers, the optimum tube length is 37 inches for 1.625" tubing with a 6500rpm redline. If you'd like other numbers plugged in, lmk.
if someone were to be planning on using a supercharger, like say a vortech t-trim. would it be easier AND perform the best to use the lightning lower w/ the lightning a/w inner cooler with a "lid" and a 2v plenum? (Joe's FGT TT style).
the lightning lowers are cheap (compared to $1,000+ for a worthy manifold) + the lightning inner cooler isn't that expensive either compared to front mounts and vortechs own a/w inner coolers.
i'm trying to somehow find a use for the lightning lower.
the supercharged application has to be the no brainer use for it, but the more i look at the profile of the lightning lower and how its runners enter the plenum the more i doupt its posibilities as a N/A manifold. adding runner length that actually helps it would be a hard task.
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