It was a little tongue in cheek, but with around 10.5:1 (I think, don't have all the numbers) I'd say forget it on pump gas. Some engines can do that, but with a long stroke and small bore this engine is built for a high peak cylinder pressure, and stock cams with low duration are also designed for a high peak cylinder pressure, and you have some chambers with nice sharp edges on the swirl dams and a piston far enough down the bore to have no quench benefit for mixture motion, all of which limits the amount of compression you can run on a given octane. It would be different if you had some sizable aftermarket cams that would bleed off some of the peak torque, holding the valve open longer past BDC reduces the peak torque value in exchange for better breathing potential at higher rpm, which also allows a higher static compression ratio to be built into the engine. Hell if these things were reversed with a 3.55 stroke and 4.16 bore you could probably run 12:1 on pump gas and make power to about 9k rpm......

 

damn you're good!



BTW...guys I found a great deal on a turbo head unit. It's a little small for a single I think but a cheap start for a set of twins. It's stock on a Cummins 5.9L diesel from recent dodge trucks.

 

Couldn't find 3v adapter plates anywhere. Anyone have any suggestions for a possible source?

 

don't know of anyone that makes them...

 

why cant you use the intake off of the f150?

 

because the runners are so long that it peaks tq at 2900 rpm. You'd want a proper intake so you can spin it to 5k-5500 without it falling on its face... and the whole hood clearance thing is an issue with the truck intake. I do know of 1 chap that chopped up a truck intake and fabbed a TB elbow but that's a lot of work and he really knows his way around the saw so it's not advisable for most others.

 

I have my moments.... Unfortunately those moments are getting fewer and farther between since I've just kinda hung out on the fringe of the hobby for the past 5 years or so.....I've forgotten much of the stuff that was once all catalogued away....



Here's a dyno from a friends truck with JLT Air Intake, JLT SCT tune, Flowmaster Super 40 muffler, and a 93 octane tune.

RPM...HP....TQ...A/F
2766 143.5 272 13.1
2837 151.4 280 13.1
2900 158.4 287 13.1
2953 164.6 293 13.1
3015 171.7 299 13.1
3078 179.9 307 13.1
3143 187.6 313 13.1
3198 193.0 317 13.1
3272 198.3 318 13.1
3351 204.2 320 13.1
3423 210.3 323 13.1
3496 217.3 326 13.0
3590 223.7 327 12.9
3673 227.8 326 12.9
3747 230.9 324 12.9
3820 234.4 322 12.9
3910 239.0 321 13.0
3996 243.6 320 13.1
4076 248.1 320 13.2
4150 252.2 319 13.2
4235 255.9 317 13.1
4318 258.9 315 13.1
4396 261.8 313 13.1
4471 264.5 311 13.1
4556 266.6 307 13.1
4635 268.3 304 13.1
4711 269.4 300 13.1
4784 269.9 296 13.1
4866 270.3 292 13.1
4946 270.0 287 13.1
5033 267.4 279 13.1

Thats in a truck with a big auto trans, long driveshaft, and heavy wheels/tires. Stick that in a 5-speed Stang and you'd probably see 290/340. There are adapters to bolt 2v headers on a 3v, so the coming 5.4 2v longtubes should be usable, add those and some cams from Hitech or other and you might see 330+ rwhp....

As a comparison my truck needed mildly ported heads, longtube headers, etc... to make 264rwhp with a peak at ~4400 rpm, the 3v 5.4 carries torque out MUCH better than the 2v did. That doesn't mean a good intake isn't desireable, but I think it could be pretty potent in a Stang even with the truck intake if you could make it fit. I don't know the height of the intake, don't have anything around to measure, but from what I've seen of the 3v 5.4 intake top the opening shape looks similar enough to the Mustang PI intake that I think a thin adapter plate for the bolt pattern would let one drop the PI elbow/TB right on top. Anyone have a 5.4 3v intake they can measure? If so flip it upside down to sit on the tb flange and measure the height up to the cylinder head mating surface. The HPS 5.4 2v intake is 4.25 inches and the 5.4 2v PI intake is a little over 6" if I remember right, so you would likely need a small cowl hood unless the 3v intake sits considerably lower than the 2v....

 

So how are people doing the 3v swap then, if there are no plates available and no acceptable intakes? As someone pointed out, that one guy on YouTube that did a 3v 5.4 swap said he used plates.. And Turbo.. Unfortunately Hitech does not carry cams for 3v engines . Plenty of other places do though.

 

I'm pretty sure they do.....they have a in-house '05 that makes around 350/350 with cams, ported heads, etc...

 

It's possible that they do, but they make no mention of 3v cams or heads on their site. So what would be my best option then for a 3v intake? Does anyone have a shot of a 2v port vs a 3v port, so that I can see what the difference is?

 

Found a 3v 5.4 intake on eBay. Doesn't look as large as I was expecting, but it also seems to have a variable path system..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/04-05...Q5fAccessories
That wouldn't be functional if I installed it though.

 

see what I mean on a 3v with all the enhanced breathing tq peak is done with by 3900 and hp starts falling over at 5K. I like to be able to get 5500rpm before it starts pointing the hp curve downwards. Headers and cams would stretch that out a bit though.... ****, looks like it might not be such a bad idea. Still can't shake the feeling that those runners are just too long.

 

I'm sure they are too long. But having a 5.4 with a lousy tq curve is better than having one that can't be installed . And I'm sure you can mess around with that intake. If it's anything like the variable intake in my Audi, removing the guts should result in an open plenum. On my car that resulted in a loss of low end tq, but a gain in the higher rpm range. Might be worth the $46 to pick up, even though I don't have the car yet.

 

For you guys still looking for parts

R heads

GT heads

3v 5.4 reman

NPI 2v 5.4

 

Nice. Those R heads are sweet.

 

Wait a second... I just looked at that intake I posted earlier, and I realized that there's no place to put the injectors . Do the injectors mount differently on a 3v, or is it missing an additional piece? I found this pic of another 3v truck intake showing a separate piece, but it's not the same as the one I posted earlier (no changeover valve and a different opening at the top.)
http://i6.ebayimg.com/04/i/001/29/a6/0823_1.JPG

 

im thinkin about goin in a different direction with my swap and want to get info on what you guys think is best and what would be more simple.

i was looking for 5.4 intakes for 4v and came across frpracn.com. his intakes seem to be pretty good and the price is not that bad.

so i might just find a navi dohc longblock and have him make me an intake. or would it be simpler to keep my b heads and have mmr widen my intake ? or keep my b heads, find a 5.4 shortblock and have him fab me and intake for my b heads on the 5.4?

so many options idk what to do now lol. if i do have an intake made what should the runner lengths be?

 

Cams would stretch it out, headers will likely just elevate the curves without much difference in peak rpm. On my truck headers and high flow spun cats were worth around 25/40 at the wheels peak, so hopefuelly the 3v would see similar gains. To do a little comparison between 2v and 3v if I extrapolote my dyno run out to 5500 (stopped at 5250) I have 200 ft-lb of torque, do the same with the run above and I calculate a little over 250 ft-lb at 5500 in a truck with a larger trans than mine, a transfer case (mine is 2wd), and stock headers/cats. Thats why I've been so tempted by a 3v swap in my truck with my longtubes bolted on. The numbers above are of course comparing with truck intakes on both, I don't have my 5.4 Mustang dyno runs on this computer to compare with, but from memory I'm pretty sure with cams and a PI intake with adapter plates my hp peak rpm was still lower than that 3v with a truck intake.....

 

there are injector bosses at the base of each runner. You can see them pretty clearly in the pic you linked.

welds are kinda rough, lots of sharp edges. have him do better work than them pics for you.

if you have a 4v right now, I'd stick with the heads you have on it and probably have MMR widen the intake for you. It'll stay looking stock with a huge sleeper factor and be easier to deal with in general.

cams without headers is questionable on a 5.4 2v if you ask me. You got damn near the same numbers out of your old car as I got with mine but you had stock cams and heads and I have ported heads and 270's (granted a crappier tune but still). My power curve and yours are otherwise hard to compare since IIRC you were going through an auto trans. I know my motor with the shorty headers peaked tq pretty low, lower than I expected even, from like 3650-4000. I was hoping to have it peak closer to 4400. I think the new headers will let that happen.



ALL: I went and saw my car in header-jail yesterday. The driver side header was on the car and the car on the ground on it's wheels. They ended up having to pull the passenger side pipes off and make a slight change for better clearance or there'd be problems fitting on other cars for sure. The ground clearance even with my cars' very low stance was good and they looked like they belonged there. The guys tell me the other one will be done next week (lift is inoperable till this weekend or it'd be done this week). I'll be shooting for dyno runs either next weekend or the following week. We're finally there. Jeebus tiddy fuggin keyrhyst.

EDIT: You guys realize I haven't driven my car since July right? I've been driving a bottom end Saturn for about 7 months now. I'm totally going to have to re-learn to drive a fast car again. DAMN IT!

 

with the tq peak being at 3900 what would be the best shift point?

 

right at the point that the HP curve leans over. For me that's about 5500 rpm right now.

EDIT: This also depends on gearing and redline and a lot of other crap.

 

Had smaller (non-PI) Crane cams in there at the end.

Had the converter locked for every run, so the numbers are a little lower than a stick but the the curve should be accurate.

Your heads and cams may allow that to happen, but longtubes on my truck just elevated the curves and didn't shift them at all. Hopefully the stock headers are holding back the gains from your H/C/I and the longtubes will have some great gains.

 

That needs to be calculated. I use the torque curve and ignore the hp curve, since hp is just a way of expressing torque over time, and torque is the actual twisting force applied to the tire. I figure torque to the tire in each gear (tq at each 100 rpm x gear ratio), calculate the rpm drop between gears, and use the torque curves in each gear to figure the best shift point for max torque to the tire. Usually you want to hold 1st gear as long as you dare because of the large 1-2 gearing dropoff, then your shift points will come down on each subsequent gear change. I've got a spreadsheet to plug numbers into but its on my old pc which isn't together right now...

 

Install C heads and use a 99/01 or Mach intake; more power and more torque.

A custom intake will cost a bunch of money and if done wrong with no better than a stock intake.

 

[quote=r3dn3ck;376614]there are injector bosses at the base of each runner. You can see them pretty clearly in the pic you linked.

I can see the injector bosses in the second pic I posted (which is a different intake,) but not in the first pic. Which one were you referring to? And sorry to hear that you've been driving a Saturn

 

Not a chance.

 

i've been driving a saturn for 2yrs since mine has been down. if it wasn't for doing hunters 5.4 swap i would have been out of a fast car for too long....

 

i wont have the money to go with c heads but i could still probably find a navi longblock but after buying the 99/01 cobra intake and having it widened it would probably end up costing more than having a sheet metal intake made but then again ill have the use of egr and iac in the stock locations which is a plus.

how much would i lose if i just used my b heads off of my cobra and widened intake because that seems to be the cheapest and quickest way for me to go right now

 

hey guys im looking for some nice blower cams to put in my 5.4.. would cams with these specs offer decent gains?

.545/.550 lift, 233/237 duration @.050 with a 113 lsa

guy says they sound badass at idle. im just wondering if there is enough duration, i know these engine need alot to fill the cylinders

 

looks like really close to xe270's. it'll work fine but it's not going to be perfect for an NA car. My xe270's are .550/.550 234/238 113. If you're going with a blower as well as the 5.4 then that's probably a pretty good choice. I'll run a sim and see what it does against my 270's with 8lbs of boost from a v2.

SIM results: the xe270 and that blower cam are so close it's negligable. The blower cam has better tq production at the mid range (just a red **** hair though) and loses a teensy tiny bit of top end compared to the 270. There's no point in comparing to a stock cam... those aren't even on the same planet.