Anyone intrested in 5.4L swaps, in here. Need you to opine. - Page 101

r3dn3ck · 11-16-2007, 07:46 AM

http://www.dreadedmonkeygod.net/home...-ur_sanity.jpg

r3dn3ck · 11-16-2007, 07:56 AM

The upshot with 4v is thanks to Al Papito and the rest of the 4v community there's better solutions to be had for 4v intakes than ever. B heads do make it harder than c heads but either is a major improvement over the 2v heads in total flow. Navi heads and cobra cams should make at least (totally minimum) 300rwhp. I'd be looking at probably a bit more than that if I were to make a prediction.

I just got the last few bits I needed for my updated fuel system. Now I can put the billet rails back on too. I got a whole crap load of fittings to add a 10micron Trick Flow filter to the mix, after the factory rail adapter and before the fuel rails. Both injector rails will feed individually from a common split point. What does this mean?

The factory returnless system makes the injector rails effectively a single long rail about 3 1/2 feet long with 8 holes in it. Anyone who's ever put a sprinkler system in knows that the more holes you put in the feed line and the longer you make the run after the first hole, the less flow you'll get to the last holes in the run. Pressure loss is a bad thing. So by t-ing the fuel flow off before it gets to the rails and splitting the pressure evenly, I've effectively cut the length of my fuel rail in half and evened up the pressure drop across all the injectors. Not to mention there's all kinds of cool looking fittings and braided lines to add to the massively cool looks it already has under the hood.

2Eighty1 · 11-16-2007, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by assasinator

here are the hard numbers for 5.4 3v maxxed out with stock heads. 467hp @ 7200. flywheel.

heads flow ~239@.600. in.

More details on this steup ?

What cams, exhaust, intake ?

assasinator · 11-16-2007, 05:51 PM

i will answer shortly. it would require an exact intake, crane cams, 11.7:1, etc.

streetable will make a few percent less.

singlesupra · 11-16-2007, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tooslow

i'm sure you guys already the cost involved with modifying/custom building and intake, but i'd just like to throw a reminder that when Al done his navi based intake, the design and fabrication totaled around $3k just to get a functional intake.

tooslow, luckily for me I make most of my own parts or I should say a lot of my own parts.

redneck, I think hitting 300rwhp will all come down to my intake. A guy on corral made 307rwhp with ported heads, cams and a sullivan intake(may have been an MMR boxed uppper I cant recall right off). He said his intake is just too much for the combo as he only turns it to 6500. Thats the major issue with a "mild" 5.4 DOHC, noone has an intake that works for us at the moment. Its either designed for too low(stock) of an RPM or too high(sullivan, MMR, etc..). From all I have read a ported cobra or widened cobra just doesnt flow enough and doesnt have enough meat to portmatch to the larger navi heads. I am drawing up a few diff designs Ill be trying in the near future to maybe remedy this and save everyone some money.
As for your fuel system, smart move. T'ing off like you did is what anyone looking to make serious power should do IMO. When I designed and made(from the routing, lines, custom rail, etc...) I did mine the same basic way as you. Some didnt do it this way and experienced a lean condition(In a supra's case, using one long rail it was the last injector #6 that was lacking). Kinda comparing apples to staples since you have a returnless system but still a good idea on either IMO.

myillwillinc · 11-16-2007, 09:54 PM

i have my rails in i just need a y block and regulator. then i'll have an upgraded fuel system.

r3dn3ck · 11-17-2007, 07:54 AM

I found a showerhead type splitter at OSH for like 7 bucks. It takes 3 1/4"NPT at the distribution head and a single 3/8"NPT at the feed end. It's made of aluminum. Here's a pic of the rail adapter to the showerhead:

r3dn3ck · 11-17-2007, 07:59 AM

Hey illwill... I have a -6m/-6M/-6F T fitting. It'll operate just like a Y but it's in a T shape. LMK.. I'm going to orchard here in a minute to get some NPT - SAE fittings. If they have a showerhead like mine I'll pick it up and send it out to you. Summit has true Y's in -6M for about 32 bucks.

r3dn3ck · 11-17-2007, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by singlesupra

tooslow, luckily for me I make most of my own parts or I should say a lot of my own parts.

redneck, I think hitting 300rwhp will all come down to my intake. A guy on corral made 307rwhp with ported heads, cams and a sullivan intake(may have been an MMR boxed uppper I cant recall right off). He said his intake is just too much for the combo as he only turns it to 6500. Thats the major issue with a "mild" 5.4 DOHC, noone has an intake that works for us at the moment. Its either designed for too low(stock) of an RPM or too high(sullivan, MMR, etc..). From all I have read a ported cobra or widened cobra just doesnt flow enough and doesnt have enough meat to portmatch to the larger navi heads. I am drawing up a few diff designs Ill be trying in the near future to maybe remedy this and save everyone some money.
As for your fuel system, smart move. T'ing off like you did is what anyone looking to make serious power should do IMO. When I designed and made(from the routing, lines, custom rail, etc...) I did mine the same basic way as you. Some didnt do it this way and experienced a lean condition(In a supra's case, using one long rail it was the last injector #6 that was lacking). Kinda comparing apples to staples since you have a returnless system but still a good idea on either IMO.

You've got the skills... you could build up and weld a setup like Richard Holdener's custom intake that they tested on the 4v 4.6 and 5.4's. All you'll need is a plate that can mount to the head and then you can start adding plumbing to air and water. Use adjustable hose like bits of radiator upper to allow you to adjust the runner length and couple those in to a big box with a TB mount on it.

The returnless systems have exactly the same problem as the supra on the last injector. It ends up being the whole driver side bank on returnless mustangs but it's the same problem of pressure drop causing lean out.

cdjnight · 11-17-2007, 09:27 AM

I picked up bottom end from balance shop today and found out with H-beam rods and probe 18cc pistons, he had to remove 250 grams from both big counter wieghts. Has anyone used a similiar set-up? Just curious if you had to remove or add wieght with your ballance job.

r3dn3ck · 11-17-2007, 02:08 PM

yep.. probe 4.5cc dish and h-beams. They drilled a little out of the crank but not 250 grams. It's not surprising.. the h-beams are way heavier than the stock rods.

Myillwill.. check email. Got a Y with your name on it.

singlesupra · 11-17-2007, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r3dn3ck

You've got the skills... you could build up and weld a setup like Richard Holdener's custom intake that they tested on the 4v 4.6 and 5.4's. All you'll need is a plate that can mount to the head and then you can start adding plumbing to air and water. Use adjustable hose like bits of radiator upper to allow you to adjust the runner length and couple those in to a big box with a TB mount on it.

The returnless systems have exactly the same problem as the supra on the last injector. It ends up being the whole driver side bank on returnless mustangs but it's the same problem of pressure drop causing lean out.

I think I am going to basicly make a sheetmetal boss290 intake with slightly shorter runners. After a brief check on the 99 today, it sounds like the issue is in the trans, perhaps as simple as a loose bolt.

r3dn3ck · 11-17-2007, 07:34 PM

did my fuel lines up. Looks mighty purdy. I'm going to do some 2nd gear WOT runs down a lonely avenue tomorrow and see if I can't get the AF dialed in. After that... we'll have some butt-dyno results and in a week or so some actual dyno results.

razorwire7 · 11-18-2007, 06:33 PM

any buddy know any particular reason why my hole driver side isnt firing... timings correct and have fuel and spark... any suggestions?

r3dn3ck · 11-18-2007, 06:55 PM

yeah... you probably left the fuel rail ground off. It's near the back on the driver side connects to a stud-bolt that holds the fuel rail down. It's this little tiny ass thing that looks like a tiny version of a spark plug wire. That may stop the injectors from firing on that side. Or, you've got a break in the injector harness.

Or, your followers on that side could have all jumped ship... totally unlikely but possible with the same effects.

EDIT... I'd pull mine and check but it's late and I need to drive home.

r3dn3ck · 11-19-2007, 08:57 AM

The following is from a reply of mine on another thread in this forum:

I've had a few days to flog my car a bit and do some more tuning on it. The 2v was worth it. I thought I might have a want for the 4v recalling my experiences driving a 00' R but no.. I'm happy. The R was more powerful (at the top) but it didn't have the all around feel that this motor gives me. It's the little things really I guess. It's made 5th gear worth having. I used to downshift to 4th to pass... not anymore. No need. To get an idea of the difference from my 2v 4.6 to my 2v 5.4 (5.5 hehe) it's like all the gears were dropped by 1... so 5th gear feels like 4th used to, 4th feels like 3rd, and so on. The R had a 6 speed so its 6th was like my 5th and I know I'd pull that thing back to 4th or 5th gear to do any freeway passing. 6th gear was just not strong enough until I was going way too fast.

This is every bit better than a blower ever would have been for me. Even roots blowers need to be doing 2000rpm to build much boost and they have to be at WOT to enjoy the boost... I have enough tq at 1500rpm to pass while staying in 5th gear with only maybe 30-40% throttle.

I'm definitely looking into my transmission options now... the 5 speed isn't doing the trick with the huge jump from 4th to 5th.

assasinator · 11-19-2007, 03:22 PM

i mentioned making adpater plates for the 4.6 3v to mine. here is a couple of early rough pics. keep in mind theis is before shaping and painting. also it is made of fiberglassed treated wood. you say "wood"? yes wood. first it's temporary for the dyno, and secondly i can't seem to find acrylic around here that's 1.5" thick. nobody really wants to cut 3" x 21" off of their slab. cheap. if it dynos ok then reichard or whoever finally makes them will get some cash from me.

r3dn3ck · 11-19-2007, 03:26 PM

exactly how I do my mockups.. wood FTW. Cheap and easy to shape and if you fugg it up it's only a couple feet of lumber.

Great work.

assasinator · 11-19-2007, 03:27 PM

it is getting shaped, as well as my head ports and intake to match. the holes are slotted for final fitup, and the plate has undersized runner for material removal. i will do 2 more layers of fiberglass inside the runners of the plate. fuel shouldn't be an issue with the final epoxy coating and fiberglass mat. a long way to go.

r3dn3ck · 11-19-2007, 03:44 PM

is taht a peeler cord segment or just center wood?

Looks great man. I'm looking forward to seeing the project progress.

cdjnight · 11-19-2007, 09:21 PM

Ok since I know I'm sticking with the Turbo on my car when I drop the new 5.4 in what do you guys think about the 4.6 Victor JR, my thought was its cheap and if I cut it down the center, I could widen it pretty easy and I would have to make an adapter anyways for my C&L elbow, I could just make it wider also. My only concern would be plenum volume, I think the turbo set up would work alot better with a larger plenum. I dont think the short runners would make much difference under boost but I would probably loose quite a bit down low, before boost. Whats your thoughts

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11-16-2007, 05:51 PM	#3004 (permalink)
assasinator Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 108	i will answer shortly. it would require an exact intake, crane cams, 11.7:1, etc. streetable will make a few percent less. __________________ 1996 GT/ 2005 5.4 3v ____________________ CMC plates delete altered stock intake twin 57mm throttle body march pullies 160* t-stat custom 80mm C&L maf K&N best:1/8th 8.58 @ 81.49 = 277 rwhp/340 rwtq.

11-16-2007, 09:54 PM	#3006 (permalink)
myillwillinc Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 658	i have my rails in i just need a y block and regulator. then i'll have an upgraded fuel system. __________________ 5.4 project in progress linky-> http://www.illwillinc.com/97mustang.htm T-Rods Coatings - Custom all the way.... http://www.illwillinc.com/

11-17-2007, 07:54 AM	#3007 (permalink)
r3dn3ck Wowbagger hates me too! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Magrathea/California Posts: 7,022	I found a showerhead type splitter at OSH for like 7 bucks. It takes 3 1/4"NPT at the distribution head and a single 3/8"NPT at the feed end. It's made of aluminum. Here's a pic of the rail adapter to the showerhead: __________________ Built 5.5L 2v and Maximum Motorsports Max Grip box. www.squarerootofone.com My CarDomain Page

11-17-2007, 07:59 AM	#3008 (permalink)
r3dn3ck Wowbagger hates me too! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Magrathea/California Posts: 7,022	Hey illwill... I have a -6m/-6M/-6F T fitting. It'll operate just like a Y but it's in a T shape. LMK.. I'm going to orchard here in a minute to get some NPT - SAE fittings. If they have a showerhead like mine I'll pick it up and send it out to you. Summit has true Y's in -6M for about 32 bucks. __________________ Built 5.5L 2v and Maximum Motorsports Max Grip box. www.squarerootofone.com My CarDomain Page

11-16-2007, 07:46 AM	#3001 (permalink)
r3dn3ck Wowbagger hates me too! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Magrathea/California Posts: 7,022	http://www.dreadedmonkeygod.net/home...-ur_sanity.jpg

11-16-2007, 07:56 AM	#3002 (permalink)
r3dn3ck Wowbagger hates me too! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Magrathea/California Posts: 7,022	The upshot with 4v is thanks to Al Papito and the rest of the 4v community there's better solutions to be had for 4v intakes than ever. B heads do make it harder than c heads but either is a major improvement over the 2v heads in total flow. Navi heads and cobra cams should make at least (totally minimum) 300rwhp. I'd be looking at probably a bit more than that if I were to make a prediction. I just got the last few bits I needed for my updated fuel system. Now I can put the billet rails back on too. I got a whole crap load of fittings to add a 10micron Trick Flow filter to the mix, after the factory rail adapter and before the fuel rails. Both injector rails will feed individually from a common split point. What does this mean? The factory returnless system makes the injector rails effectively a single long rail about 3 1/2 feet long with 8 holes in it. Anyone who's ever put a sprinkler system in knows that the more holes you put in the feed line and the longer you make the run after the first hole, the less flow you'll get to the last holes in the run. Pressure loss is a bad thing. So by t-ing the fuel flow off before it gets to the rails and splitting the pressure evenly, I've effectively cut the length of my fuel rail in half and evened up the pressure drop across all the injectors. Not to mention there's all kinds of cool looking fittings and braided lines to add to the massively cool looks it already has under the hood.

11-17-2007, 09:27 AM	#3010 (permalink)
cdjnight Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 117	I picked up bottom end from balance shop today and found out with H-beam rods and probe 18cc pistons, he had to remove 250 grams from both big counter wieghts. Has anyone used a similiar set-up? Just curious if you had to remove or add wieght with your ballance job. __________________ Momentum is everything till you drive off a cliff! 2003 Mustang GT, 5.4L Triton V8(LOL), Comp 270's gears and springs, Intercooled Precision T63, 42lb injectors, Flowmaster 3.5" Single Chamber, B&M Holeshot 3000, Racegate, Sniper Commando Tuning, Kenne Bell BAP,BG Mighty Sumo pump, MSD MOD6, LM1 wideband, Best e.t, 7.67@92mph in the 1/8th. on MT drag radials. No dyno tune yet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaJ2yQH1Ezs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1hiMJy3ezk

11-17-2007, 02:08 PM	#3011 (permalink)
r3dn3ck Wowbagger hates me too! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Magrathea/California Posts: 7,022	yep.. probe 4.5cc dish and h-beams. They drilled a little out of the crank but not 250 grams. It's not surprising.. the h-beams are way heavier than the stock rods. Myillwill.. check email. Got a Y with your name on it. __________________ Built 5.5L 2v and Maximum Motorsports Max Grip box. www.squarerootofone.com My CarDomain Page

11-17-2007, 07:34 PM	#3013 (permalink)
r3dn3ck Wowbagger hates me too! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Magrathea/California Posts: 7,022	did my fuel lines up. Looks mighty purdy. I'm going to do some 2nd gear WOT runs down a lonely avenue tomorrow and see if I can't get the AF dialed in. After that... we'll have some butt-dyno results and in a week or so some actual dyno results. __________________ Built 5.5L 2v and Maximum Motorsports Max Grip box. www.squarerootofone.com My CarDomain Page

11-18-2007, 06:33 PM	#3014 (permalink)
razorwire7 5.4L in progress Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 29	any buddy know any particular reason why my hole driver side isnt firing... timings correct and have fuel and spark... any suggestions?

11-18-2007, 06:55 PM	#3015 (permalink)
r3dn3ck Wowbagger hates me too! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Magrathea/California Posts: 7,022	yeah... you probably left the fuel rail ground off. It's near the back on the driver side connects to a stud-bolt that holds the fuel rail down. It's this little tiny ass thing that looks like a tiny version of a spark plug wire. That may stop the injectors from firing on that side. Or, you've got a break in the injector harness. Or, your followers on that side could have all jumped ship... totally unlikely but possible with the same effects. EDIT... I'd pull mine and check but it's late and I need to drive home. __________________ Built 5.5L 2v and Maximum Motorsports Max Grip box. www.squarerootofone.com My CarDomain Page

11-19-2007, 08:57 AM	#3016 (permalink)
r3dn3ck Wowbagger hates me too! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Magrathea/California Posts: 7,022	The following is from a reply of mine on another thread in this forum: I've had a few days to flog my car a bit and do some more tuning on it. The 2v was worth it. I thought I might have a want for the 4v recalling my experiences driving a 00' R but no.. I'm happy. The R was more powerful (at the top) but it didn't have the all around feel that this motor gives me. It's the little things really I guess. It's made 5th gear worth having. I used to downshift to 4th to pass... not anymore. No need. To get an idea of the difference from my 2v 4.6 to my 2v 5.4 (5.5 hehe) it's like all the gears were dropped by 1... so 5th gear feels like 4th used to, 4th feels like 3rd, and so on. The R had a 6 speed so its 6th was like my 5th and I know I'd pull that thing back to 4th or 5th gear to do any freeway passing. 6th gear was just not strong enough until I was going way too fast. This is every bit better than a blower ever would have been for me. Even roots blowers need to be doing 2000rpm to build much boost and they have to be at WOT to enjoy the boost... I have enough tq at 1500rpm to pass while staying in 5th gear with only maybe 30-40% throttle. I'm definitely looking into my transmission options now... the 5 speed isn't doing the trick with the huge jump from 4th to 5th. __________________ Built 5.5L 2v and Maximum Motorsports Max Grip box. www.squarerootofone.com My CarDomain Page

11-19-2007, 03:22 PM	#3017 (permalink)
assasinator Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 108	i mentioned making adpater plates for the 4.6 3v to mine. here is a couple of early rough pics. keep in mind theis is before shaping and painting. also it is made of fiberglassed treated wood. you say "wood"? yes wood. first it's temporary for the dyno, and secondly i can't seem to find acrylic around here that's 1.5" thick. nobody really wants to cut 3" x 21" off of their slab. cheap. if it dynos ok then reichard or whoever finally makes them will get some cash from me. __________________ 1996 GT/ 2005 5.4 3v ____________________ CMC plates delete altered stock intake twin 57mm throttle body march pullies 160* t-stat custom 80mm C&L maf K&N best:1/8th 8.58 @ 81.49 = 277 rwhp/340 rwtq.

11-19-2007, 03:26 PM	#3018 (permalink)
r3dn3ck Wowbagger hates me too! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Magrathea/California Posts: 7,022	exactly how I do my mockups.. wood FTW. Cheap and easy to shape and if you fugg it up it's only a couple feet of lumber. Great work. __________________ Built 5.5L 2v and Maximum Motorsports Max Grip box. www.squarerootofone.com My CarDomain Page

11-19-2007, 03:27 PM	#3019 (permalink)
assasinator Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 108	it is getting shaped, as well as my head ports and intake to match. the holes are slotted for final fitup, and the plate has undersized runner for material removal. i will do 2 more layers of fiberglass inside the runners of the plate. fuel shouldn't be an issue with the final epoxy coating and fiberglass mat. a long way to go. __________________ 1996 GT/ 2005 5.4 3v ____________________ CMC plates delete altered stock intake twin 57mm throttle body march pullies 160* t-stat custom 80mm C&L maf K&N best:1/8th 8.58 @ 81.49 = 277 rwhp/340 rwtq.

11-19-2007, 03:44 PM	#3020 (permalink)
r3dn3ck Wowbagger hates me too! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Magrathea/California Posts: 7,022	is taht a peeler cord segment or just center wood? Looks great man. I'm looking forward to seeing the project progress. __________________ Built 5.5L 2v and Maximum Motorsports Max Grip box. www.squarerootofone.com My CarDomain Page

11-19-2007, 09:21 PM	#3021 (permalink)
cdjnight Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 117	Ok since I know I'm sticking with the Turbo on my car when I drop the new 5.4 in what do you guys think about the 4.6 Victor JR, my thought was its cheap and if I cut it down the center, I could widen it pretty easy and I would have to make an adapter anyways for my C&L elbow, I could just make it wider also. My only concern would be plenum volume, I think the turbo set up would work alot better with a larger plenum. I dont think the short runners would make much difference under boost but I would probably loose quite a bit down low, before boost. Whats your thoughts __________________ Momentum is everything till you drive off a cliff! 2003 Mustang GT, 5.4L Triton V8(LOL), Comp 270's gears and springs, Intercooled Precision T63, 42lb injectors, Flowmaster 3.5" Single Chamber, B&M Holeshot 3000, Racegate, Sniper Commando Tuning, Kenne Bell BAP,BG Mighty Sumo pump, MSD MOD6, LM1 wideband, Best e.t, 7.67@92mph in the 1/8th. on MT drag radials. No dyno tune yet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaJ2yQH1Ezs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1hiMJy3ezk