I have heard about bore sleeves for the 4.6/5.4 to give it a 3.70 bore vs. a 3.551. my question is does anyone know how much this cost and what kind of gains you see out of this. also if there are any down sides to bore sleeves. I'm doing a N/A 5.4 and it would be cool to have a 5.8 SOHC

 

It's going to be pretty pricey to have new sleeves pressed into a block, better off just having it normally bored. I've never heard of putting in new sleeves in our blocks to get to 5.4. If you wanted to spend the money and have new sleeves pressed in then it could possibly strengthen the block if the sleeves are stronger than the original casting but you will end be giving up thickness between the cylinders and possible in the end have a weaker block.

 

MMR already makes this item. Check out their site.

In any case cylinder sealing is a problem with the narrow fire-path and you'll want to use heavily modified 2v heads or ported 4v heads just to feed it.

Cost for the 351R block from MMR is 3300 bucks bare.

 

The 3.7" bore on 2v motors increases intake flow due to the significant unshrouding of the valves. Modular Performance has done a lot of these and the owner even has a 2v Big bore motor in his mustang. If I remember right it makes about 350rwhp.

Cylinder sealing is not a problem with the dry sleeves. I know of a lot of FI and nitrous motors that have had zero issues, one of them makes over 450rwhp n/a and over 700 on nitrous; 10.79 n/a and 9.88 n2o.

Wet sleeves tend to leak and so if you wanna run a lot of boost you should go with a Boss block which is an iron block with a 3.7" bore.

Once again, a dry sleeve block will have no sealing issues under moderate boost or n2o use.

BTW, you can also go with a bore that is 1mm smaller to increase sealing.

 

I've had a lot of company guys tell me the 3.7" bore is street worthy but so far I don't see a lot of them on anything but drag cars. I want to believe it's a streetable piece but I just can't imagine how.

I mean yeah the head is kinda skinny at the deck so there's not that much material to flex like a SBC or SBF head and the modular blocks are way strong but still. Tell me: Do you seriously think it's something that's really street worthy reliable? Could you feel good about recommending it as a solution to people who have exactly 1 shot to build a motor that has to last them several years under pretty regular abuse and daily driving and never let them down with a blown HG? No sarcasm... I'd like to know.

 

I thought about this long ago but now figured it's not worth it. I'll be good on the motor as is.

 

To answer your question...yes, i can and have recommended big bore motors for the street. There are by far more of them on the street than there are on the track, especially since NMRA requires stock bore/stroke in many classes.

Like I said, there are many guys on corral and SVTP that have big bore motors, both 2v and 4v in n/a and FI combos.

Seriously, the dry sleeve 3.7" bore has been around for years and has proven to be very reliable. As for the wet sleeve, it is not and should only be used for very high boost applications but even then you have to be willing to take a chance.

I know of two 2v 3.7" motors that are over 340rwhp with mild cams and have had no head gasket sealing issues. One of them has 10s of thousands of miles on it. Like I stated earlier, I also know of one running n2o, 200 shot, and has has no head gakset sealing problems.

You can't beat the power added by additional cubic inches, even those provided by a stroker.

Talk to some people that have big bore motors and they'll give you the true story, not just conjecture/speculation about how they may be. Try Corral and SVTP for good BB info.

3.7" bore sleeves do not and will not weaken the block. There are too many 3.7" bore motors out there that are making 7-800rwhp and are still together to make any claims/comments like that. Once again, go to Corral or SVTP and do some research.

BTW, a 3.7" bore makes for a 302 cubic (or very close) motor. Adding a stroker crank will the cubes to 324, this too is a viable option as there are many of these motors on the street and I'm currently working spec'ing cams for two that are in work; 1 with a whipple 3.4 and another that will be n/a.

Modular Performance, MMR, Proline, VT CED, and many others make them and have been for many years.

This site seems to be a few years behind when it come to big bore motors and the advantages they offer.

 

not really behind, I think they just don't care... most of the guys here are kinda young, low on $$$ and light on tech background. They're the typical mustang guy on the street... wants more than it came with but not enough to justify pulling a motor out much less apart. Know your audience.

Enough of these guys have blown HG's in stock bore cars that getting them to make the jump to it being more likely is like asking them to hit themselves in the head. No matter how unlikely you say it is, the fact is a smaller bridge between bores means it's easier to vent the combustion gasses to a non-standard exit. That being the case, not one of these jokers is going to bother.

Secondly, big bore motors are expensive as hell to do so there's not enough return on the investment. You can yank the same 340rwhp (been done) from a stock bore 5.4 2v with proper exhaust, cam, head, intake selection and never get beyond "stage 2" parts (I don't do stages but they're good for comparison in language). So spending a couple grand on machining and installing a dry sleeve kit seems... inappropriate at best don't you think? We've got standard bore 2v 5.4's going as far as 360rwhp with off the shelf parts. Not that the big bore wouldn't make those numbers bigger but really ... why bother if that's the level of power you want?

I however may do the BB when I do my 4v upgrade and blower install on my 5.4 since then it will no longer be a street car and smoking a HG won't be such a big deal then. I've gone farther on mods than almost anyone on this forum. The average guy here has a couple bolt-ons and a body kit. So for you understand why nobody appearantly gives a damn about big bores here and figure out the overall dynamic may require that you abandon what you think we should care about and just fall in and learn what we all already think without any preconceptions. You're giving advice to people you don't even know or understand the situation of... be careful. I've taken some time to get to know these guys.

And yeah... dry sleeves actually make the block stronger under normal circumstances since the sleeve is stronger than the block.

 

I answered the question that was asked by the OP. He didn't ask about ROI, he asked about gains, cost and downsides. The only downside is the cost.

In the case of my response to your comment, I was clearing up a fallacy that blown head gaksets are a problem with these motors...they are not.

Knowing your audience is very important, but it is more important to giving that same audience factual information from which they can make an informed decision.

 

I am glad I searched the Forum for a post such as this regarding the "big bore" motor. I have been going back and forth anylizing what I understand to be the pro(s) and con(s) of the larger bore motor VS the 5.4 swap. I see the last post on this thread left off with "dry sleeves" VS "wet sleeves".

Maybe I'm wrong, but it I think FRPP released it's cast-iron 5.0 MOD block for over-the-counter sales around the time this thread stopped. I know the aluminum steel-sleeved FRPP Cammer block has been available over-the-counter longer, but it is about $1,000.00 more than the newer cast-iron 5.0 (3.700 bore) block. I'm sure there has been a lot of official as well as shade-tree R&D with the cheaper (and newer) iron 5.0 MOD block since it's recent debut. It seems impressive; but I also question how the iron (and the aluminum) 5.0 blocks would work on the street.

If anyone cares to update this thread with opinion(s), R & D data, and your own personal experiences regarding the use of either the iron or aluminum 5.0 MOD blocks please post up, and please be as thorough as possible.

Remember; You can achieve an engine anywhere from 300 to 325 CID with this new MOD block. With the choice of both factory (and now aftermarket) 2-V, 3-V, and 4-V heads the possibilities are more than just numerous. The future of the MOD block "mods" looks interesting as well as promising (IMHO).

Just an idea (if nothing else) to increase the contributions (and possibly the ratings) of this excellent web site, if nothing else. I am convinced the 5.0 and 5.4 swaps will only increase in the future. REDNECK has already contributed an outstanding, ongoing R & D thread on the 5.4 swap. I dont know of a better thread on any other Mustang website. His work is truly remarkable, to say the least. It may be a good idea to try to balance the potential future out with an ongoing thread on the "newer" 5.0 parts.

Enough of my rambling ... Thanks for Yall's patience.

 

good idea... start up a thread and I'll sticky it.

Now that there's proper support for the wide bore blocks the 5.4 has some legit competition. The TFS heads being on the market now makes for a modular series of parts that you can use to tailor to a power level. There's a solution for heads flowing from 190-300 in nice easy to buy into steps. Add to nicely staged cams from all manufacturers and now blocks are available in low-deck standard bore, low deck big bore, tall deck standard bore and tall deck big bore. We have now officially gained as much flexibility as Brand-X has just in parts and we've got more stout blocks available to us for low cost. I forsee the first few 450hp NA short-deck cars coming down the pipe pretty soon.

 

OK ... here goes. I think I'll title the new thread "MOD 5.0 TECH", if that is OK with you and the MODERATORS .... (???)

We can start posting all the ideas, trials, tribulations, and SUCCESSES on 5.0 big-bore MOD blocks there.

Thanks for supporting the idea.

 

This was posted because of MMR's 3.70 bore 5.4 block, making it a 5.8 liter. (351ci)

 

SWEET ... More CID the better !!!

 

Did they get the 3.70 bore by sleeves, or is there a 3.70 bore block that FORD has that most of us have never heard of ... ???

 

http://www.modularmustangracing.com/index.htm

scroll down till you see the modular 351R block

Possibly something they cast themselves?

 

This is quite possible and some time next week when I get the chance I just might call and ask them then post up their response on here.

They are not the only outfit doing a 351 CID MOD motor. Here is a link to another machine shop on the west coast that I think has been around for years (otherwise I know nothing about them):

http://www.powerheads.com/

Go in there and read how they arrive at 351 CID. Sounds interesting and attractive but I have to admit I am a bit skeptical for the best of reasons.

 

From what I saw on that site the only way they have of making a 351 is with a stroker crank. There is another threas on here that mentions why it's impractical to put a stroker crank in a tall deck 5.4 . Although they did have something about making a 6.2L using a 3.70 bore aluminum block from Sean Highland Motorsports. So if you want a big bore without using sleves it's wither the one from MMR or SHM. Neiter one will be cheep.

 

I'm going to call MMR this next week and find out what's up with the 351 CID motor. Meanwhile, stay tuned for the Lunati information.

 

This is from page #128 of the March 2009 issue of MUSCLE MUSTANGS & FAST FORDS magazine, from the LUNATI advertisement on that page:


Ford 4.6 Destroker: 3.350 stroke 2.657 main size Part #MOD3350 Price $983.23
Ford 4.6 Standard: 3.543 stroke 2.657 main size Part #MOD3543 Price $792.47
Ford 4.6 Stroker: 3.750 stroke 2.657 main size Part #MOD3750 Price $983.23
Ford 4.6 Stroker: 3.800 stroke 2.657 main size Part #MOD3800 Price $983.23

Ford 5.4 Destroker: 4.00 stroke 2.657 main size Part #MOD4000 Price $983.23
Ford 5.4 Standard 4.165 stroke 2.657 main size Part #MOD4165 Price $792.47
Ford 5.4 Stroker 4.350 stroke 2.657 main size Part #MOD4350 Price $983.23

Stated also is they are all 8-bolt flange cranks and the journals are “fillet rolled” for better oiling and they will all work in 2-V, 3-V, and 4-V engines.
Phone: 662-892-1500 www.lunatipower.com