If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above.
You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.
To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
The 00 R utilizes the same Iron block as the navigator, and the baddest heads ever created. But you will not find these.
A 5.4L swap would consist of an 00-02 non-NVH navigator block (with Forged Crank), Navigator Heads -ported perferrably. Most 4.6L DOHC headers will work on a Navi-headed 5.4L...but the Cobra R heads would require special headers.
The kicker on a 5.4L swap is the intake manifold. There aren't many good options for this.
I've been pondering this as well. All in all it won't cost any more then a 4.6L buildup except for the intake manifold.
A new intake choice is the Sullivan manifold. It looks like a carb intake and is available for 4V 4.6's and 5.4's. Also the 03 Cobra heads (also 02+ Navi heads) arent a bad second choice to the 00 R head. The only big down side is headers. Basically you are stuck with 03 Cobra manifolds, but they do flow pretty good. These swaps will become more popular in the next few years. Ive seen used Navi engines complete for around $2000, the intake starts at $700. Plus a GT computer and harness can run it all.
After lots of research and planning (and lucking out finding a complete 5.4 for under 100 bucks tee hee) I'm beginning my engine build on a 99 E150 motor to replace my 4.6. It'll be going into an 03gt. Granted I'll be using a 2V motor, so there's a couple differences in how for a 4V swap. This seems like the right forum to log and exchange notes.
I'll start with some of my considerations and little details I've found.
5.0/Super Fords did a 2 part article on this in Nov 2003 and Jan 2004. Very good detailed articles, in fact the bulk of what you need to know in the way of little details is in there.
The intake is a pretty ugly problem thanks to the height of the motor. 5.4 is a tall deck 4.6, same heads, cams, pistons, valves... different crank and rods is all. That means this is a pretty straightforward swap otherwise.
Reichard (sp?) Racing makes a set of 4.6-5.4 intake adapter plates. While they do extend the already long intake runners another inch and a half they work and that's kinda that. That being said, you can use those with any 4.6L intake and it'll work. I'll be using my stock GT intake for phase 1, and I may convert to something a little more radical later. With an aftermarket upper plenum and a 75mm TB, you can get decent flow. The power band will start really early thanks to the super long runners, so say hello to tq monster. You can extend the band up the RPM range a little by adding a nice hot set of cams (xe274's have been suggested other places). Add a stage 3 porting job by patriot and you'll have a really really long tq curve and a pretty nice HP build up to 5000+RPM from the stock peak HP rpm of 4400 (the intake is still the restriction at this point but you'll make the most of it with the cams and P&P/valves). The best part is all the little sensors and gizmo's plug into the same places. Set up like that a small cowl, R hood or a little clearancing of the support material under the stock hood will let the intake clear, the thing will look stock and it's less effort than it could be.
The 4.6 is as wide as a 460. The 5.4 is and inch wider. It does fit but snugly and it's appearantly a pain to wiggle in. The exhaust manifold on the driver side has a little bump on it that's totally useless. Die grinder to the rescue and it won't rest against the frame.
I'm trying to find a good rod. It needs to be light, strong and inexpensive. Probably end up with forged I beams...
For pistons, any 4.6 slug will work. I'm looking for a final compression ratio of about 10:1 so there's a million choices.
5.0's car ended up with something like 267/335 at the wheels. I've read of a couple guys that did straight swaps without a motor build and were running 12's on drag radials with ridiculously low trap speeds.
If I went with a 5.4 in my Mustang Id only do it with a blower. The N/A results arent worth the effort. Going that route I think the Lightning lower intake with intercooler is the way to go. You would have to have a sheetmetal upper intake fabbed but itd give you more hood clerance and shorter runners. The other thing Id like to try is the Cobra Eaton on a Lightning 5.4. With the Cobra breathing from the back, that has to be 5 more inches of clerance.
The differences between a 5.4L 4V and 4.6L 4V N/A setup would be well worth the "Cost" especially considering that the cost of a built N/A setup either way will be the same. A max effort N/A 4.6 will require 7500+rpms...inherently requiring a pro-shifted tranny, and a high end valve train thus making about low-mid 400's rwhp and mid 300's tq. A max effort 5.4L will break the 500rwhp mark, make torque a 4.6 can only dream of, and run strong up to 7200rpm just like the stock 4.6 setup.
In either application, FI or no a 5.4L is well worth the effort.
Try to tell that to Al Papitto and he'll show you a 134mph timeslip with a 5.4L n/a. Not many 4.6L's doing that
Yes but consider Al's a full race motor. A GT block and Cobra R heads... try finding those. Not too mention custom long tubes. Thats a far cry from a street car and from what most of us could afford.
And yes it does make over 500 rwhp but dollar for dollar you could make a supercharged 4.6 2V for less money IMO.
I was mostly refering to the 2V 5.4, even with ported heads, cams and a short runner intake its tough to make over 300 rwhp. A better swap idea would be an Aviator 4V 4.6...
oohsoobad2,I guess if a max effort engine is what you're looking for, and you have no goals in mind but the most radical package you can build, then yeah, 5.4 2v isn't worth it cause you can't hold the RPM's as well as a 4v. I'd thought about going with a FRPP PI blower setup for 99-04 stangs but, really for the THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS it costs to supercharge, I can get a MM k-member, custom exhaust and tuning, plus two months worth of gas. How is NA not worth it? Street driven, daily driver with weekend drag and road course duty seems like a street oriented engine with big numbers would be best... huh
If you want to street drive your car, be able to run 12's with bolt-ons and street tires, look stock, and shift at 5K then 2V is what to use. I don't like 4V motors for the street, too much capacity for spinning high RPM and nowhere to use it. There's nothing I'd rather road race with though.
Consider this... the cost to build up a 5.4 2v is nearly identical to a 4.6 2v. The only thing you really have to deal with that's extra is intake adapters or a new intake, and finding rods light enough that they'll will handle whatever RPM range you have in mind. The exhaust is an ever present issue and I didn't see that there were many easy alternatives to the stock logs.
My goals are easy, tq around 330rw, hp around 265rw, above that is gravy. In theory I could get that from the stock 5.4 with a couple bolt ons. I'll be adding patriot stage 3 ported heads, 10:1 slugs, I beam rods and a little more cam and hoping for 300hp and 350tq. Maybe unreasonable but I think I'll get there pretty easily.
The upshot is all that torque means I don't have to deal with getting the rear gears done. 3.27's will be just fine and still traction limited into 3rd gear.
Throwing a wrench in this for input becuase its a swap I'm interested in.
I live in CA. As a result I cannot swap a "truck motor" into a car (oddly enough you can swap a car motor into a truck). That pretty much eliminates the 5.4 for consideration out here.
Unless somebody knows something I dont....
I think you missed the piont of several statements I'd made... I live in California too. The idea for me is to make it appear to be stock enough to pass. There's a maybe a handful of guys in my local mustang club that are on the ball enough to ID a 5.4 with a mustang intake stuffed into the engine bay of a mustang, smog techs will just write it off as a 4.6. Remember.. the 4.6 is as wide as a big block ford. It's friggin huge. There's almost no room left in the bay to the casual observer, so another inch and pates between the manifold and the heads are the only real giveaways. Since you can pass the emissions side with a properly running car (may have to back the timing off a notch or switch to another tune altogether) of any displacement, it's only the visual that's a problem. This is easiest solved by the application of a six pack a week of GOOD beer to your favorite local smog guy, or getting a hook up from a local pal. I don't have to smog for a few years yet, and I know my local smog guy pretty well. So no worries.
Now buck up and go find a 5.4.
I brought my motor home today. Damn that thing is heavy. But, I got the complete motor plus the accessories. It's got an 8 bolt crank, time for a flywheel. Didn't beat up the bores that I can see but I'll have to tear it apart to find out for sure. Everything else is cherry. There's not even any crud built up inside the intake ports on the heads.
r3dn3ck, Im not knocking you for trying this swap. I was mostly refering to the post above my last one.
I am mostly concerned with street performance, not an all out race motor. Yes a 5.4 with ported heads, cams and tune might get close to 300 rwhp. But for similar money, you can also take a Aviator 4V and swap it in with no fabrication at all and make the same amount of power. It will be 75 lbs less and fit like factory. And with the right gear 4V's do fine on the street.
But again if you got a good deal on the 5.4 and go that route, I wish you the best and cant wait to see the results.
no worries man... the conversation seemed to be turning to max effort engines and other engines in general. I know... it's not like I started the thread but the starter seems to have vacated it.
I'd thought about an Aviator motor, and even had a line on one from a buddy. Problem is that the Aviator motor is basically a cobra swap and there's a lot more detail in swapping to a 4V than a 2V. Sensors don't go the same places, some things aren't even there, other stuff is a different style of the same thing, etc... So the 5.4 is actually a much less technical swap if not the most flexible option as long as you start with a 2V 4.6. I wasn't saying anyones argument was not valid... just not on point.
The HP numbers are secondary to me. HP is for show, TQ is for go in real actual city street driving. Like you all (should) know, HP is total work done and tq is a built up energy with a tendency to rotate around an axis, and a motor with the same tq but higher hp than another is a more powerful motor that the other but, it's not always the best for the application.
I did get a great deal on the 5.4.... 80 bucks intake to oil pan plus accessories. No fib...
Any 500rwhp modular motor car is going to require a rebuild. Now i'm not denying that an aviator swap or any other 4V swap for their 2V counterpart wouldn't be a viable option...there are a hundred ways to make these cars fast. I'm just bringing to light the fact that with enough mechanical ability and patience and research a 5.4L swap is feasible and just as economic as a 4.6L setup whether 4V or 2V. When you equate Forced induction into the equation there's a bit more to it...as a 4.6L 4v setup would make more power then could ever be utilized on the street. And it would require a track dedicated chassis to extract it's full potential on the strip.